[Fwd: [Fwd: Griffin #2]]

From: Lucy Masters (masters@cox-internet.com)
Date: Thu May 24 2001 - 00:04:47 EDT

  • Next message: George Hammond: "[Fwd: GOD IN THE BOX (what is a Factor Analytic proof of God?)]"

    Hi, Bill:

    In response to your question, "...what's wrong with design?" First, I
    would agree with you that all things in the universe are designed by
    God. However, that is a statement of faith.

    I am strongly opposed to the "design movement," "intelligent design,"
    and so on for many reasons, but chief among them: (a) it involves no
    faith but looks for proof instead (I believe faith precludes proof - I
    mean - who needs faith if you have proof?), and (b) it assumes that
    design exists objectively. In other words, Dempski does not seem to
    share my viewpoint that all appearances of "design" are purely
    subjective.

    My experiences with cognitive psychology have led me to conclude that
    all the examples Dembski provides as objective truth of design are
    simply subjective viewpoints. I wish I were smart enough to write a
    wonderful treatise on this subject, but I'm not. A couple of other
    fellows wrote a nice book on the subject of objective vs. subjective
    design issues - geared for cognitive folks and not theologians. In
    light of the "design debate," it might be interesting for
    science/religion folks to give it a twirl: "Where Mathematics Comes
    From: How the Embodied Mind Brings Mathematics into Being" by George
    Lakoff and Rafael E. Nunez.

    Lucy


    attached mail follows:


    On Thu, 24 May 2001 08:42:48 +1000 Jonathan Clarke
    <jdac@alphalink.com.au> writes:

    > A recent example (April 9) was Paul Nelson's refusal to publicly answer
    Loren
    > Haarsma's question "Are carbon atoms intelligently designed?"

    I can't imagine why Paul would be reluctant to answer that one. In my
    mind carbon atoms are absolutely designed, along with every other
    particle and force in the universe. Why did Loren even ask that question
    in the first place, and what's wrong with design?

    > In many ways the supernatural-natural split is completely unhelpful for
    the
    > reasons you state. What matters is that God is always working in the
    world,
    > whether the results are explicable to us or not. A miracle is not
    necessarily
    > something inexplicable to present science, or even something
    fundamentally
    > inexplicable (although they may be both), it is an event that has
    significance
    > in God's salvation history.

    I think our pastor recently made a distinction here between miracles and
    what we might call fortuitous events. I think he said something like the
    latter is providential, not miraculous.

    > Also people use "supernatural" with respect not
    > just to God, but also the paranormal and demonic, which muddies the
    waters.

    Why? Demonic activity is real in today's world, e.g. dowsing for water
    or underground utility lines. I would consider dowsing supernatural but
    not miraculous.
    >
    > However, I think there is a need for a word to describe specific
    actions by
    > God in the world contrary to creaturely processes.

    What's wrong with miracles?

    Bill
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