Dick Wrote:
>All that overcast and rain in Scotland has impacted your sense of humor.
I'll
>give you a hallmark: animal sacrifice. One of the notations I read while
>researching this stuff in the Library of Congress was a receipt for
"unblemished
>cattle for sacrifice" translated into English from Sumerian. Catal Huyuk
in
>Syria was abandoned prior to 7,000 years ago and showed no evidence of
animal
>sacrifice.
I see from this that you haven't budged an inch in relation to observational
data over the past two years from what you believed in March 2000.
http://www.calvin.edu/archive/asa/200003/0009.html You believe that the
image of God originates 7000 years ago. As we shall see your position is
terribly inconsistent.
>So if I can pick an activity demonstrating spirituality, that's it. Now we
can
>argue about what activity should be used, which was my point. Who is to
say I
>can choose, or you can choose?
Why would I want to argue with your choice Dick? I think it is a great
choice. So I will show you how far back animal and human sacrifice go!
First an extended quote from Adam, Apes and Anthropology (by me) p. 67
discussing bear cults in recent history and recent times anthropologically
speaking.
***begin quote from AAA**********
Ivar Lissner was a German anthropologist, born in Riga, Latvia. He spent
several years studying the circumpolar cultures of the N.E. Siberians,
including the Tungus, Ostyaks, Samoyeds, Gilyaks, Negidals Orochi and Olcha
tribes. He extended his study to some of the North American Indians and
Eskimos. Through these studies, he became familiar with the bear cults of
the circumpolar region. Much of what we know about the bear cults come from
the people of Northeast Asia whom Lissner studied.
The bear cults have several features in common. They believe that the
bear in some way is human. The ancient Finns believed that the bear had a
human soul.31 The Orochi are equally convinced of this fact.32 Eskimos
believe that humans and bears can be transformed into one another.33 These
cultures also have a bear festival at which the bear is sacrificed. The bear
is viewed as a mediator between God and man.
Such a festival has been observed in the activities of the Gilyaks, a tribe
of Northeastern Asians. They believe in a supreme being named Kur, who is
the essence of goodness.34 This god is invisible and so cannot be depicted
by image. Kur decides the fate of men. Gilyaks use the bear to send a
message to God. They capture a young bear and raise him in their village
for two or three years. The bear, destined for the great bear festival, is
treated as an honored guest. They feed him, take him for walks on a chain,
bathe him and treat him as a friend. When the festival day draws near,
everyone in the village helps in the preparations. A location for the
sacrifice is prepared and effigies of the minor deities are hung from poles
in pairs representing a man and his wife. The animal is taken from his cage
and led to each yurt (or house) in the village. At each yurt the bear is
greeted with laughter and rejoicing as each family shows its respect to the
bear. Some men will grab the bear by the sides of its head and kiss it. If
the bear strikes and claws the man, the scars are viewed as a badge of
honor. The bear is then led to the favorite fishing holes so that he can
bless these sites and ensure good fishing for the rest of the year. Finally
the bear is led three times around the house of the family which raised him.
The bear is then led to the place of execution and tied to strong posts.
The families go back to their yurts to celebrate while the narch-en, the
executioners, prepare the bows and arrows. Invariably, the narch-en are
guests who have been invited to the festival for the purpose of killing the
bear. After a while the men, but none of the women come back to the bear and
sacrifice it. A few wounding shots are fired by young narch-en while their
young boys throw stones at the bear. Finally the oldest narch-en draws his
bow and dispatches the animal. The Gilyaks watching this wish the bear a
good journey to God and tell the bear to inform God how well he was treated
by the Gilyaks. The reason that the narch-en are strangers or guests is so
that the bear will think well of the Gilyaks, having been killed by members
of another tribe. This ensures a good report to God.
The dead bear is then laid out, head to the west, so that it will not see
the rising sun before it sees God. The bear is skinned, his meat is cooked,
and the narch-en are required to eat all the bear. The Gilyaks can only eat
some soup made from the bear but are forbidden to eat the bear themselves,
out of respect for having raised him. The feasting may last for days and
when the guests finally go home they take all the remaining food from the
bear with them.
Another tribe, the Ainu of northern Japan, also engages in a bear ritual
that is quite similar to that of the Gilyaks. The excellent treatment of
the young bear however goes even a step further. One missionary to the
Ainu, John Batchelor, reported that he once preached at one end of a hut
while five women passed a bear cub from lap to lap, each allowing the cub to
suckle from her breast.35 The very young cub is even taken to bed with the
family. Prior to the sacrifice, the Ainu would ask the bear's forgiveness
and say something like, "You were brought into the world for us to hunt. We
have reared you with great love. Now that you are grown, we send you to
your father and mother. When you reach them, tell them how good we were to
you. And come again so that we may sacrifice you again."36 The Finns are
also reported to have told the bear to relay to God how well treated the
bear had been and the Chippewas of North America, like the Ainu, would
apologize to the bear.37
Figure 11 Side 1 Mas d'Azil plaque
One of the most interesting items concerning the bear cult is the hint of
the origin of some of our constellations. After the bear is sacrificed, he
is known as the "chinukara-gur, which means 'prophet' or 'guardian.'"38
They also use this same term to refer to the pole star. This is where the
bear's spirit goes after it is sacrificed. Another Northeastern Asiatic
tribe, the Udehe, also looked to the pole star for good hunting after their
yearly sacrifice of a bear. The pole star is in the constellation Ursus
minor, which is Latin for Little Bear. We also call this constellation the
Little Dipper. The primeval Mediterranean and European cultures as well as
the Ainu and Udehe, see that constellation as being associated with a bear.
Apparently, in the case of the Mediterranean cultures, the goddess Artemis
was believed to have been a bear at one time. This is one more
manifestation of the bear cultists' tendency to see bears as human. The
constellation of the bear was named in her honor.39 The Big Dipper or Ursa
Major was associated with the Nymph Callisto, whom Zeus placed into the
heavens in the form of a bear.40 "
****end quote from AAA**********
Mas d'Azil dates around 13000 BC, and they appear to be drawing bear
sacrifices on their stone plaques!
This is from http://www.glenn.morton.btinternet.co.uk/rossrev.htm There is
more below after this extended quotation
***begin http://www.glenn.morton.btinternet.co.uk/rossrev.htm ****
Recent discoveries have revived the debate about how old religion is. It
certainly appears to be much older than 24,000 years. Ross continues to rely
on a very outdated Science News articles to support his thesis (Simon, 1981,
p. 357; Bower, 1986, p. 378-379; Ross, 1991, p. 160 and p. 213 note 29).
Surely one should be expected to at least look at more recent data. Data
that has come to light since (and some that existed before) then shows that
Ross' claim is erroneous.
There was apparently an altar in Chauvet Cave(dated 31,000 years ago[Balter,
1996, p. 449). A bear skull was precariously placed on a flat topped stone
and fire was burned just behind the skull. Chauvet et al, write:
"A little further on we were deeply impressed by what we discovered. In the
middle of the chamber, on a block of grey stone of regular shape that had
fallen from the ceiling, the skull of a bear was placed as if on an altar.
The animal's fangs projected beyond it into the air. On top of the stone
there were still pieces of charcoal, the remains of a fireplace. All around,
on the floor, there were more than thirty bear skulls; now covered in a
frosting of amber-coloured calcite, they were purposely set out on the
earth. There were no traces of skeletons. This intentional arrangement
troubled us because of its solemn peculiarity." (Chauvet et al, 1996, p. 50)
The lack of bear skeletal parts proves that these were not stray bears that
got trapped and died in the cave. Their heads were removed elsewhere and
brought into the cave. [this is evidence of bear sacrifice--grm]
The fact that 30,000 years ago man was apparently worshipping the bear lends
credence to the next oldest probable religious site. Except this one was
built by Neanderthal. At Bruniquel, France, archeologists have excavated a
square stone structure dating to more than 47,000 years ago (prior to the
advent of modern man in Europe) in which the Neanderthals burned a bear.
Bednarik (1996, p. 104) writes:
"The cave of Bruniquel in southern France has just produced fascinating new
evidence. Several hundred metres in from the cave entrance, a stone
structure has been discovered. It is quadrilineal, measures four by five
metres and has been constructed from pieces of stalagmite and stalactite. A
burnt fragment of a bear bone found in it was radiocarbon analysed, yielding
a 'date' of greater than 47 600 years BP. This suggests that the structure
is the work of Neanderthals. It is located in complete darkness, which
proves that the people who ventured so deep into the large cave system had
reliable lighting and had the confidence to explore such depths. Bruniquel
is one of several French caves that became closed subsequent to their
Pleistocene use, but were artificially opened this century."
This appears to have been the ritual sacrifice of a bear. It is also the
first proof that man went deep into caves long before they painted the
walls. (Balter, 1996, p. 449)
Neanderthals at Nahr Ibrahim, Lebanon, appear to have ritually sacrificed a
deer. Marshack writes:
"In the Mousterian cave shelter of Nahr Ibrahim in Lebanon the bones of a
fallow deer (Dama mesopotamia) were gathered in a pile and topped by the
skull cap. Many of the bones were unbroken and still articulated. Around the
animal were bits of red ochre. While red ochre was common in the area and so
may have been introduced inadvertently, the arrangement of the largely
unbroken bones suggests a ritual use of parts of the animal." (Marschack
1990, p. 481)
The ochre was proven to have been brought in from elsewhere by the
discoverer (Solecki, 1982). This site is greater than 40,000 years old.
The 80,000 year old site of Drachenloch, Switzerland, also appears to have
been a religious site, once again a Neanderthal site. Bachler found what
appeared to be ritually arranged cave bear bones and ashes on what he called
a sacrificial altar. (Lissner, 1961, 187-188). Campbell and Loy write:
"The most famous example of what has been claimed to be Neandertal hunting
magic is the so-called bear cult. It came to light when a German
archaeologist, Emil Bachler, excavated the cave of Drachenloch between 1917
and 1923. Located 8,000 ft (2,400 m) up in the Swiss Alps, this 'lair of the
dragons' tunnels deep into a mountainside. The front part of the cave,
Bachler's work made clear, served as an occasional dwelling place for
Neandertals. Farther back, Bachler found a cubical chest made of stones and
measuring approximately 3.25 ft (1 m) on a side. The top of the chest was
covered by a massive slab of stone. Inside were seven bear skulls, all
apparently arranged with their muzzles facing the cave entrance. Still
deeper in the cave were six bear skulls, seemingly set in niches along the
walls. The Drachenloch find is not unique. At Regourdou in southern France,
a rectangular pit, covered by a flat stone weighing nearly a ton, held the
bones of more than 20 bears." (Campbell and Loy, 1996, p. 441)
Honesty demands that one note that Drachenloch (not Regourdou) is
controversial so for an alternative view, see Kurten (1976, p. 84-86) For a
discussion of why I don't think Kurten's critique is correct see Morton
(1997, p.73-75)
There is an even earlier altar, which is not controversial, found at
Bilzingsleben, Germany. The excavators, Dietrich and Ursula Mania have found
a 27-foot-diameter paved area that they say was used for "special cultural
activities" (Mania et al,1994, p. 124; See also Mania and Mania, 1988, p.
92). Gore writes:
"But Mania's most intriguing find lies under a protective shed. As he opens
the door sunlight illuminates a cluster of smooth stones and pieces of bone
that he believes were arranged by humans to pave a 27-foot-wide circle.
"'They intentionally paved this area for cultural activities,' says Mania.
'We found here a large anvil of quartzite set between the horns of a huge
bison, near it were fractured human skulls.'" (1997,p. 110)
I would contend that the symbolism here, if found in a modern village, would
be enough to cause one to turn and flee for his life. Such an arrangement of
objects would immediately be interpreted as evidence of religion, and a
hostile religion at that. And Bilzingsleben dates to around 400,000 years,
not the mere 24,000 years that Ross prefers for the oldest evidence of
religion. If Ross wishes to claim that religion doesn't go back further than
24,000 years, he should explain why the above five examples don't qualify as
examples of religion? It is clear that evidence of religion in the
anthropological record prior to 24,000 years is not rare. Ross can't prove
his case by ignoring these sites and this data.
***end of http://www.glenn.morton.btinternet.co.uk/rossrev.htm ***
"In the Salzofenhohle, more than six thousand feet up in the
Totes Gebirge not far from Aussee in Austria, the paleontologist
and paleobiologist Kurt Ehrenberg found three cave bears' skulls
which had been accurately ringed with stones. In all three
cases, charcoal remains were discovered beside or beneath the
skulls. In Petershohle, bears' skulls had been carefully
deposited in small holes and niches. In a cupboard-like recess
in the rock wall, four feet above the floor of the cave, five
skulls, two femurs and a humerus were found all belonging to cave
bears. The skulls fell to pieces in the diggers' hands during
removal. The man responsible for exploring the Petershohle, K.
Hormann, declared: 'These skeletal remains could not have got up
there or in there by any natural means.' It seems probable
therefore that they were a conscious committal to eternity and a
deliberate sacrifice, not a fortuitous act but a calculated
gesture toward an exalted and timeless power." ~ Ivars Lissner,
Man, God and Magic, (New York: G. P. Putnam's Sons, 1961), p.
191-192
Now, Dick, live by your choice. Animal sacrifice is much older than 7000
years ago.
As to the comments about humor, you use your sarcasm with YECs as a surgical
knife. I see you using it towards others in a fashion that displays a lack
of respect for them. Thus, when it is directed my way, I suspect the same
attitude lies behind it. Don't give up your day job. Your future as a
comedian is limited.
glenn
see http://www.glenn.morton.btinternet.co.uk/dmd.htm
for lots of creation/evolution information
anthropology/geology/paleontology/theology\
personal stories of struggle
-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]On
Behalf Of Dick Fischer
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 5:48 AM
To: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: RE: How and when did we become "men"?
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Fri Apr 19 2002 - 14:24:26 EDT