Re: [asa] On telling the truth about science

John said: *Excusing our pastors and Christian leaders from this most basic
responsibility implies that we can't ever know true objective reality and
all the gospel and all the scripture are fantasy.*

I don't think my perspective is such a binary one: "accept fully or
excuse." It is a matter of patient, humble, loving conversation, rebuke and
correction, coupled with a readiness to acknowledge that these are difficult
issues concerning which there is no one obviously right answer. I mean, if
we have to say "I really can't explain the Fall adequately just now" --
which is what all honest TE's must say -- we aren't in any position to be on
a high horse about the "right" way to understand the faith-science nexus.

And I think the Arlington cemetary analogy is overblown. Yes, some people
will turn away from the faith because of YEC, and that is a horrible shame.
But the reality is that this is just not a major issue for most people --
most people, Christian and non-Christian alike, have no idea what we're
arguing about and don't care. We are concerned about it because this is how
we're wired and we live, work and minister to people who are wired similarly
-- which is ok and important. Yet it is only one small part of God's broad
redemptive work.

On Jan 19, 2008 11:48 AM, John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Regardless of all this log and splinter talk and generosity and team
> building, at the end of the day the ultimate judge of all of us including
> these deluded YEC's is what impact our lives had on those that we
> influenced.
>
> As an analogy from history, Arlington National Cemetery was rightly placed
> in Robert E. Lee's front yard as he was directly responsible for the deaths
> of all those Confederate and Union soldiers, in spite of all the rhetoric
> about him being a great statesman and military genius, etc. I think at the
> core of any Christian leadership role lies the fundamental responsibility of
> knowing right from wrong and being honest and ethical enough to follow it.
>
> By extension, in the spiritual realm, I think the ministry campuses of the
> Creation Museum and ICR etc are going to end up being littered with crosses
> of all their spiritual casualties, and that is just as fitting. Excusing
> our pastors and Christian leaders from this most basic responsibility
> implies that we can't ever know true objective reality and all the gospel
> and all the scripture are fantasy.
>
> John
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] *On
> Behalf Of *David Opderbeck
> *Sent:* Friday, January 18, 2008 4:41 PM
> *To:* Stephen Matheson
> *Cc:* asa@calvin.edu
> *Subject:* Re: [asa] On telling the truth about science
>
> I don't know that the reluctance to accuse fellow Christians of lying is
> either "a generous spirit toward fellow humans" or "teambuilding." In my
> case, at least, it's (a) a concern for the unity of the body of Christ; and
> (b) a hesitancy to pluck splinters out of others' eyes before tending to the
> logs in my own.
>
> As to (a), I wouldn't disparage that as "teambuilding." I have no
> interest in supporting the YEC program and no concern about unbelievers
> seeing us engage in honest, civil debate. However, many of the regular,
> decent folks I fellowship and minister with would likely be hurt / offended
> / threatened by strong, public accusations of dishonesty against some YEC
> leaders. They will not be convinced by those accusations, and making such
> statements would hinder our fellowship and ministry. IMHO, scripture and
> experience are clear in circumstances like this: the wise and loving action
> is to express your opinion sparingly (see, e.g, Prov. 12:18: "Reckless
> words pierce like a sword, but the tongue of the wise brings healing.").
>
> As to (b), let's say there are some hucksters out there who are actively
> dishonest in selling YEC. YEC can be a lucrative business, like many other
> "Christian"-related products. But would we also agree that most YECs --
> both professional and lay -- are not lying but rather are taking what they
> believe is the right approach to reconciling science and scripture? And are
> we also willing to recognize that none of us has this exactly right and all
> figured out? Don't we all have a few areas in which we're not completely
> comfortable with our own views? Are we secure and mature enough in our own
> beliefs to gently admonish and encourage our YEC brothers and sisters to
> consider looking at things differently, without anger or accusations? Or do
> we really think it's all about *us* and what *we *think?
>
>
> On Jan 18, 2008 1:48 PM, Stephen Matheson <smatheso@calvin.edu> wrote:
>
> > I don't see how Menton's abuse of Tiktaalik can be anything but outright
> > fabrication:
> > http://lancelet.blogspot.com/2007/03/dr-david-menton-is-liar.html
> >
> > But this is what we get when science mutates into folk science, and when
> > its purpose is not exploration or understanding, but apologetics.
> >
> > Having said that, I'm baffled by the reluctance to suggest that
> > Christians can lie. If the hesitation is a general one, born of a generous
> > spirit toward fellow humans, great, but if it's some kind of teambuilding
> > strategy, ditch it as fast as you can. (That's an overall comment, not
> > specifically addressed to Ted. Who looks like Michael Keaton, don't you
> > think?)
> >
> > Steve Matheson
> >
> > >>> "Ted Davis" <TDavis@messiah.edu> 01/18/08 1:27 PM >>>
> > I changed the heading of this thread to reflect this particular topic.
> >
> > A couple of years ago, in the wake of the Kitzmiller trial (ID), I
> > attended
> > Kent Hovind's seminar, in the auditorium of Dover Senior High School.
> > I'll
> > skip the details on how it was arranged, and who declined an invitation
> > to
> > "debate" "Dr Dino," (not yours truly), and cut to the chase. Forget ID,
> > Hovind told the audience -- most of whom did not live in the Dover
> > school
> > district (there was a show of hands about this during the seminar).
> > Forget
> > creationism. Forget the Bible. Just focus on the "lies" in the
> > textbooks.
> > All from a man who is now in jail on a criminal offense. Hovind still
> > likes
> > to use some of the arguments that creationists themselves say you
> > shouldn't
> > use, esp the howler about the retrograde rotation of Uranus disproving
> > the
> > big bang. Hello? A few details would be appreciated, to help me
> > connect
> > those dots. That one, as Pauli or Dirac or someone (I've forgotten
> > exactly
> > who) once said, isn't even wrong. He has to know that some of his stuff
> > is
> > more than out there on the fringe and entirely unsupported even by his
> > fellow YECs. He has to. I just don't think he cares. Whether his tune
> > will change after he gets out of prison, we'll just have to wait and
> > see. I
> > hope it does, literally for Christ's sake.
> >
> > The closest that most YECs come to deliberate lying, IMO, is when the
> > present the big bang as an atheists' theory. That one also isn't even
> > wrong. It's such a profound distortion of the history of the theory and
> > how
> > it is often viewed even by religious sceptics today. A profound
> > distortion.
> > It absolutely enrages me when I hear it, so I do make a big point of
> > telling my students why I get angry about that one. Here's a little bit
> > of
> > what I tell them:
> >
> > http://home.messiah.edu/~tdavis/EditorBigBang.htm
> >
> > On the other hand, I get comparably angry when Scientific American
> > devotes
> > an issue to the multiverse and present it without blinking an eye as
> > good,
> > hard science that challenges religion. Of course--with Michael Shermer
> > on
> > board there now, they are advancing the old warfare thesis of religion
> > and
> > science. I know quite a few people who've canceled their subscriptions
> > in
> > recent years for similar reasons.
> >
> > Ted
> >
> > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
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> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
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> >
>
>

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Received on Sat Jan 19 12:31:10 2008