RE: [asa] On telling the truth about science

Regardless of all this log and splinter talk and generosity and team
building, at the end of the day the ultimate judge of all of us including
these deluded YEC's is what impact our lives had on those that we
influenced.
 
As an analogy from history, Arlington National Cemetery was rightly placed
in Robert E. Lee's front yard as he was directly responsible for the deaths
of all those Confederate and Union soldiers, in spite of all the rhetoric
about him being a great statesman and military genius, etc. I think at the
core of any Christian leadership role lies the fundamental responsibility of
knowing right from wrong and being honest and ethical enough to follow it.
 
By extension, in the spiritual realm, I think the ministry campuses of the
Creation Museum and ICR etc are going to end up being littered with crosses
of all their spiritual casualties, and that is just as fitting. Excusing
our pastors and Christian leaders from this most basic responsibility
implies that we can't ever know true objective reality and all the gospel
and all the scripture are fantasy.
 
John
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of David Opderbeck
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 4:41 PM
To: Stephen Matheson
Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] On telling the truth about science

I don't know that the reluctance to accuse fellow Christians of lying is
either "a generous spirit toward fellow humans" or "teambuilding." In my
case, at least, it's (a) a concern for the unity of the body of Christ; and
(b) a hesitancy to pluck splinters out of others' eyes before tending to the
logs in my own.
 
As to (a), I wouldn't disparage that as "teambuilding." I have no interest
in supporting the YEC program and no concern about unbelievers seeing us
engage in honest, civil debate. However, many of the regular, decent folks
I fellowship and minister with would likely be hurt / offended / threatened
by strong, public accusations of dishonesty against some YEC leaders. They
will not be convinced by those accusations, and making such statements would
hinder our fellowship and ministry. IMHO, scripture and experience are
clear in circumstances like this: the wise and loving action is to express
your opinion sparingly (see, e.g, Prov. 12:18: "Reckless words pierce like
a sword, but the tongue of the wise brings healing.").
 
As to (b), let's say there are some hucksters out there who are actively
dishonest in selling YEC. YEC can be a lucrative business, like many other
"Christian"-related products. But would we also agree that most YECs --
both professional and lay -- are not lying but rather are taking what they
believe is the right approach to reconciling science and scripture? And are
we also willing to recognize that none of us has this exactly right and all
figured out? Don't we all have a few areas in which we're not completely
comfortable with our own views? Are we secure and mature enough in our own
beliefs to gently admonish and encourage our YEC brothers and sisters to
consider looking at things differently, without anger or accusations? Or do
we really think it's all about us and what we think?

On Jan 18, 2008 1:48 PM, Stephen Matheson <smatheso@calvin.edu> wrote:

I don't see how Menton's abuse of Tiktaalik can be anything but outright
fabrication:
http://lancelet.blogspot.com/2007/03/dr-david-menton-is-liar.html

But this is what we get when science mutates into folk science, and when its
purpose is not exploration or understanding, but apologetics.

Having said that, I'm baffled by the reluctance to suggest that Christians
can lie. If the hesitation is a general one, born of a generous spirit
toward fellow humans, great, but if it's some kind of teambuilding strategy,
ditch it as fast as you can. (That's an overall comment, not specifically
addressed to Ted. Who looks like Michael Keaton, don't you think?)

Steve Matheson

>>> "Ted Davis" <TDavis@messiah.edu> 01/18/08 1:27 PM >>>

I changed the heading of this thread to reflect this particular topic.

A couple of years ago, in the wake of the Kitzmiller trial (ID), I attended
Kent Hovind's seminar, in the auditorium of Dover Senior High School. I'll
skip the details on how it was arranged, and who declined an invitation to
"debate" "Dr Dino," (not yours truly), and cut to the chase. Forget ID,
Hovind told the audience -- most of whom did not live in the Dover school
district (there was a show of hands about this during the seminar). Forget
creationism. Forget the Bible. Just focus on the "lies" in the textbooks.
All from a man who is now in jail on a criminal offense. Hovind still likes

to use some of the arguments that creationists themselves say you shouldn't
use, esp the howler about the retrograde rotation of Uranus disproving the
big bang. Hello? A few details would be appreciated, to help me connect
those dots. That one, as Pauli or Dirac or someone (I've forgotten exactly
who) once said, isn't even wrong. He has to know that some of his stuff is
more than out there on the fringe and entirely unsupported even by his
fellow YECs. He has to. I just don't think he cares. Whether his tune
will change after he gets out of prison, we'll just have to wait and see. I
hope it does, literally for Christ's sake.

The closest that most YECs come to deliberate lying, IMO, is when the
present the big bang as an atheists' theory. That one also isn't even
wrong. It's such a profound distortion of the history of the theory and how

it is often viewed even by religious sceptics today. A profound distortion.
 It absolutely enrages me when I hear it, so I do make a big point of
telling my students why I get angry about that one. Here's a little bit of
what I tell them:

http://home.messiah.edu/~tdavis/EditorBigBang.htm

On the other hand, I get comparably angry when Scientific American devotes
an issue to the multiverse and present it without blinking an eye as good,
hard science that challenges religion. Of course--with Michael Shermer on
board there now, they are advancing the old warfare thesis of religion and
science. I know quite a few people who've canceled their subscriptions in
recent years for similar reasons.

Ted

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Received on Sat Jan 19 11:49:38 2008