RE: [asa] Romans 1:20 (disregard my last post)

And although I did not care to open the altruism debate again and I am aware
there are arguments from Dawkins and others to reconcile this with natural
selection, I think a little bit of objectivity is in order.

While the trained scientist may visit a football game and see the star
quarterback come over to the sidelines and give his beautiful adoring and
onlooking wife and big hug and passionate kiss after winning a big game and
technically and accurately observe, "what a marvelous display of random
natural selection on the selfish genes of manliness and beauty to ensure the
survival of the fittest members of the human species", most of us
non-scientists would just feel a twinge of awe if not jealously in our inner
soul and consider this an expression of natural human love and through our
non-reductionist lenses would view this as another hallmark of God's
attributes in creation. These emotions may also shared by many weepy parents
at the weddings of their offspring as well.

Solomon was the wisest of all but "the way of a man with a maid" was in his
words, one of "three things that are too amazing for me, four that I do not
understand:" And like the other wonders of design in creation that the Holy
Spirit uses to being people to Christ, this human experience is another that
we should affirm to the seeking world and not rob them of the miracle it
really is by explaining it away as a merely naturalistic phenomenon.

Thanks

John

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of Jack
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 7:32 AM
To: John Walley; 'George Murphy'; 'David Campbell'; mrb22667@kansas.net
Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] Romans 1:20 (disregard my last post)

Your response is a potential mire with your use of the term "unguided". But
we have discussed altruism before on this list before, and it can clearly be
selected for via natural selection. Genes that would cause self sacrificial
behaviors, especially to family members, and even more so to offspring,
would be favored via "random" natural selection.

Jack Syme

----- Original Message -----

From: John Walley <mailto:john_walley@yahoo.com>

To: 'George Murphy' <mailto:gmurphy@raex.com> ; 'David
<mailto:pleuronaia@gmail.com> Campbell' ; mrb22667@kansas.net

Cc: asa@calvin.edu

Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 6:56 AM

Subject: RE: [asa] Romans 1:20 (disregard my last post)

Obviously at the physical and pheromone level this is true, but at the
spiritual level of romance and love, and macho male protection and
altruistic self sacrifice, this defies non-guided evolution and can possibly
qualify as one the "invisible things" that are "clearly seen".

Thanks

John

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of George Murphy
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 9:41 PM
To: John Walley; 'David Campbell'; mrb22667@kansas.net
Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] Romans 1:20 (disregard my last post)

In fact pretty girls - & handsome boys - fit in perfectly with evolution
through natural selection. Those traits are clearly advantageous, ceteris
paribus, for attracting mates & passing on their genes.

Shalom
George
 <http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/> http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/

----- Original Message -----

From: "John Walley" < <mailto:john_walley@yahoo.com> john_walley@yahoo.com>

To: "'John Walley'" < <mailto:john_walley@yahoo.com> john_walley@yahoo.com>;
"'David Campbell'" < <mailto:pleuronaia@gmail.com> pleuronaia@gmail.com>; <
<mailto:mrb22667@kansas.net> mrb22667@kansas.net>

Cc: < <mailto:asa@calvin.edu> asa@calvin.edu>

Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 8:06 PM

Subject: RE: [asa] Romans 1:20 (disregard my last post)

And furthermore, in my opinion pretty girls make a decent rebuttal to C.S.
Lewis's claim that you can't discern whether the God of nature is a loving
God or capricious, ambivalent, etc. I think that beauty in nature,
especially feminine beauty, speaks volumes about our creator. And that is
something that a red in tooth and claw nature can't readily explain either.

John

-----Original Message-----
From: John Walley [mailto:john_walley@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 7:59 PM
To: 'David Campbell'; <mailto:'mrb22667@kansas.net'> 'mrb22667@kansas.net'
Cc: <mailto:'asa@calvin.edu'> 'asa@calvin.edu'
Subject: RE: [asa] Romans 1:20 (disregard my last post)

But pretty girls definitely reflect the glory of His Creation and could
therefore loosely fall under the scope of Romans 1:20. :)

John

-----Original Message-----
From: <mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu> asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
[mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of David Campbell
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 2:24 PM
To: <mailto:mrb22667@kansas.net> mrb22667@kansas.net
Cc: <mailto:asa@calvin.edu> asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] Romans 1:20 (disregard my last post)

> > Suppose then this person converts to deism still from a purely secular
point
> > of view and then starts exploring all the world's religions to see if
any of
> > their testable truth claims can survive the scrutiny of being compared
to
> > the scientific record. And suppose then that after eliminating all the
> > others they conclude that Christianity is valid and real and the Bible
is
> > inspired, and therefore they become a Christian.
> >
> > In this scenario, can we so confidently say that "that natural theology
does
> > *not* lead a person to Christ" ?

I see a semantic difference here. At the ultimate level, only the
work of the Spirit can lead one to Christ. In this particular
situation, I would identify the examination of various religions as
the means used in leading to Christ, though of course God was working
though his interest in science, etc. As another example, I know of a
couple of testimonies from men who came to Christianity from other
religions. Initial motive for coming to a Christian fellowship group
was that all the pretty girls were there.

-- 
Dr. David Campbell
425 Scientific Collections
University of Alabama
"I think of my happy condition, surrounded by acres of clams"
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