RE: [asa] Romans 1:20 (disregard my last post)

Wayne,

I am not suggesting that science is all we should use but the converse is
also true that we shouldn't just use the cross either. We should use both.

My original point in this thread was that the revealed facts of nature do
indeed point to God if you are truly seeking the truth and I think Ross's
testimony is a good example of what the scripture's mean in this verse.
Since in this modern day battle of worldviews, the atheists offer science as
the alternative source of truth so it is fair to put their faith to the test
against the revealed facts of nature.

Which is more rational, that the fine tuned universe filled with life that
exhibits design characteristics and with unexplainable origins was designed
by a transcendent creator like the Bible says, or was the lucky result of an
infinite series of purposeless and meaningless universes? As Christians we
have this obligation of bringing this obvious dichotomy to the intellectual
table of the world and not to hide behind some theology that absolves us of
this responsibility. The heavens declare His glory so why are we denying
that to our fellow human beings that are lost and dying?

Even if this only leads to deism or theism then that is sufficient because
it puts the lie to the strict materialism of Dawkins and encourages people
to keep looking further for the deity. Then we are to the parable of the
sower and some like Hoyle will be led to aliens but others like Ross will be
led to Christ.

Thanks

John

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of dawsonzhu@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 10:00 AM
To: john_walley@yahoo.com; mrb22667@kansas.net; asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] Romans 1:20 (disregard my last post)

John Walley wrote:
wd:
> The main thing is that both sides are using science to claim it supports
their metaphysical assumptions.

JW:

I think what is missing from this overly simplistic observation is the fact
that as the subject of this thread reminds us, the scriptures have something
to say bout this as well. Factoring this out, then sure you can reduce it
down to a he said/she said scenario and that is what I feel is the error of
many on the list, but when you let this verse speak for itself, now you have
the tie-breaker on whose metaphysical assumptions are supported.
 

As Merv mentioned yesterday, "I can't get over the apparent contradiction

even just in the phrases: "invisible attributes" followed by "have been
clearly

seen." all in the same sentence" not to mention "clearly seen" and
"without

excuse".
 

This does not sound like that at least from God's perspective, this matter
is being left up to the subjectivity of the beholder.

wd:
Of course scripture has something to say about this. And God will judge
those at the end of the age, and we can realize that we are without excuse
for more than just denying the Lord's work. But the basis for that
understanding is not one of science in my opinion. If it were so, then this
back and forth would be a non-issue. In fact, one of the central points of
the church is that we are sinners who are completely unable to achieve
salvation under our own power. It is only through Christ. If science could
really add any weight to the issue, wouldn't it be the case that we could
achieve salvation through science? If science could really say "X", then at
least some people could "obey" the science and not know anything about the
scripture or the convicting power of the holy spirit.

Though I may personally feel that there is willful denial, or determined
denial, I probably have more ability to understand what is going on inside
the head of a creationist than I do what is actually inside the head of an
atheist. Even before I because a Christian, it seemed in my mind that these
things were clearly seen. Yet in my exchanges, I could not find a way to
hit it square what I feel. I've certainly looked for things like that; if
not a club, at least a screw driver to pry something open with. I'm sure
lots of other people have looked for the same things.

Maybe we are just talking past each other on this. But I still feel that if
_all I use_ is science without putting that science in the context of my
relationship with God, then what I feel I am left with is just a "he said"
scenario. I need that relationship with God to perceive how the warp and
the weft weave such a beautiful tapestry.

by Grace we proceed,
Wayne

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Received on Sat Nov 17 11:37:59 2007