John Walley wrote:
wd:
> The main thing is that both sides are using science to claim it supports their metaphysical assumptions.
JW:
I think what is missing from this overly simplistic observation is the fact that as the subject of this thread reminds us, the scriptures have something to say bout this as well. Factoring this out, then sure you can reduce it down to a he said/she said scenario and that is what I feel is the error of many on the list, but when you let this verse speak for itself, now you have the tie-breaker on whose metaphysical assumptions are supported.
As Merv mentioned yesterday, “I can’t get over the apparent contradiction
even just in the phrases: “invisible attributes” followed by "have been clearly
seen…” all in the same sentence” not to mention “clearly seen” and “without
excuse”.
This does not sound like that at least from God’s perspective, this matter is being left up to the subjectivity of the beholder.
wd:
Of course scripture has something to say about this. And God will judge those at the end of the age, and we can realize that we are without excuse for more than just denying the Lord's work. But the basis for that understanding is not one of science in my opinion. If it were so, then this back and forth would be a non-issue. In fact, one of the central points of the church is that we are sinners who are completely unable to achieve salvation under our own power. It is only through Christ. If science could really add any weight to the issue, wouldn't it be the case that we could achieve salvation through science? If science could really say "X", then at least some people could "obey" the science and not know anything about the scripture or the convicting power of the holy spirit.
Though I may personally feel that there is willful denial, or determined denial, I probably have more ability to understand what is going on inside the head of a creationist than I do what is actually inside the head of an atheist. Even before I because a Christian, it seemed in my mind that these things were clearly seen. Yet in my exchanges, I could not find a way to hit it square what I feel. I've certainly looked for things like that; if not a club, at least a screw driver to pry something open with. I'm sure lots of other people have looked for the same things.
Maybe we are just talking past each other on this. But I still feel that if _all I use_ is science without putting that science in the context of my relationship with God, then what I feel I am left with is just a "he said" scenario. I need that relationship with God to perceive how the warp and the weft weave such a beautiful tapestry.
by Grace we proceed,
Wayne
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Received on Sat Nov 17 10:00:57 2007
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.8 : Sat Nov 17 2007 - 10:00:57 EST