At 12:20 PM 11/9/2007, Kirk Bertsche wrote:
>Interesting points. I would simply point out that it is perfectly
>accurate, both biblically and theologically, to use a personal
>pronoun to refer to a personal God. ~ Kirk
>
>On Nov 9, 2007, at 8:25 AM, <mailto:mlucid@aol.com>mlucid@aol.com wrote:
>
>>"... Jesus as the Son of God is the only "who" to whom humans can
>>accurately attribute such a pronoun. -Mike (Friend of ASA.)
@ So you say. Let's see:
EXCERPT: "...There remains one question: can it be shown that the
Holy Spirit is a person as Jesus the Word was? Is it justified to see
the Spirit as a "distinct center of conscious thought" as the creedal
statements affirm? At first glance, it may be easy to object that
with no incarnation of the Spirit, there is no direct evidence of the
Spirit as a person. The Spirit could just be a "force with you" and
impersonal, an effect of God. Why not be a Binitarian? There are no
statements, as from Jesus, where the Spirit prays to the Father. Or are there?
Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we
know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself
maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
If the Spirit is not a separate person, how does he intercede? But
here is the classic text for the personhood of the Spirit:
Acts 5:3, 9 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine
heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of
the land?...Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed
together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them
which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
Is it possible to lie to or test, to disobey or to grieve, an
impersonal force? (See also Acts 16:16, Eph. 4:30) Or:
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will
guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but
whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you
things to come.
Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy
Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I
have called them.
Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay
upon you no greater burden than these necessary things...
Hebrews 3:7 Wherefore as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will
hear his voice...
1 Tim. 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter
times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing
spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Luke and Darth's "Force" didn't have anything to say, but the Spirit
does, and even uses personal pronouns (Acts 13:2).
Pushback: The Bible has trees speaking [Ps. 96:11-12; Is. 55:12], and
hands and feet speaking [1 Cor. 12:15-16]. It also has names rotting
[Prov. 10:7], land vomiting [Lev. 18:25] and blood crying out [Gen.
4:10]. So what if the Spirit speaks also?
This objection doesn't make the grade: These passages are clearly in
poetic/allegorical genres, whereas the above verses are straight
narrative discourse; furthermore, verses where land vomits or blood
cries is also clearly allegorical, since land and blood have no
mouth, but a spirit is a living and active force and has a means to
speak. At the same time, neither land nor blood ever has such a wide
variety of active and interpersonal-relation verbs applied to them.
Blood cries out, but no one has ever "lied" to blood or had it
intercede for them in prayer. The Spirit is indeed the quiet member
of the Trinity in terms of the reports we have; he was not incarnated
among men and converses with them even now only inwardly. But he
clearly does speak, and that's not what an impersonal force does.
Pushback: 1 Tim. 2:5 says, For there is one God, and one mediator
between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. If the Holy Spirit were a
person co-equal with the Father and Son it would be an affront to
exclude him from some intermediary position.
This objection simply doesn't grasp the meaning of the term
"mediator". It was originally a business term, broadened to mean any
mediator. The word is used by Paul elsewhere to refer to Moses (Gal.
3:19) and in Hebrews 1:6: "But now hath [Jesus] obtained a more
excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better
covenant, which was established upon better promises." (See also
9:15, 12:24) The word refers to a specific function of
administration, not merely a go-between. The Spirit did not and does
not serve this function.
Pushback: The word "spirit" is neuter in gender. How can an "it" be a person?
John's Gospel twice refers to the Holy Spirit in a masculine gender:
15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from
the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the
Father, he shall testify of me: John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the
Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he
shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall
he speak: and he will show you things to come. Helpfully the last
passage also clarifies the nature of the relationship of the Spirit
to the Father; the Spirit "proceeds" as Wisdom does.
Pushback: But other objects are assigned gender in the Bible. Even
today we refer to objects like ships in the feminine!
Those who offer this objection -- which I have found -- fail to
provide examples of objects in the Bible being assigned gender. The
idea about ships has no bearing unless one provides evidence that a
"spirit" was referred to thusly even without any notion of personality.
Finally, there are Trinitarian formula which place the Spirit on a
par with Father and Son (Matt. 28:19, 2 Cor. 13:14). Some may object
that there is nothing that says that the Spirit is a person in these
passages, but it is the burden of proof upon the replier to show that
personality is not part of the Spirit's makeup."
Excerpted from: The Holy Spirit and the Trinity Relationship by
James Patrick Holding http://www.tektonics.org/qt/quietthird.html
~ Janice
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Received on Fri Nov 9 12:51:29 2007
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