Re: [asa] Signing off this thread - Random and natural vs intelligence

I overstepped my bounds, Janice.? Lets just say that the intelligent design debate is diminish to whatever extent we try to humanize the Creator.?

-Mike (Friend of ASA)

-----Original Message-----
From: Janice Matchett <janmatch@earthlink.net>
To: Kirk Bertsche <Bertsche@aol.com>; mlucid@aol.com
Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Sent: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 11:51 am
Subject: Re: [asa] Signing off this thread - Random and natural vs intelligence

At 12:20 PM 11/9/2007, Kirk Bertsche wrote:

Interesting points.? I
would simply point out that it is perfectly accurate, both biblically and
theologically, to use a personal pronoun to refer to a personal God. ~
Kirk

On Nov 9, 2007, at 8:25 AM,
mlucid@aol.com wrote:

"... Jesus as the
Son of God is the only "who" to whom humans can accurately
attribute such a pronoun.? -Mike (Friend of
ASA.)

@?? So you say.? Let's
see:

EXCERPT:??? "...There remains one question: can
it be shown that the Holy Spirit is a person as Jesus the Word was? Is it
justified to see the Spirit as a "distinct center of conscious
thought" as the creedal statements affirm? At first glance, it may
be easy to object that with no incarnation of the Spirit, there is no
direct evidence of the Spirit as a person. The Spirit could just be a
"force with you" and impersonal, an effect of God. Why not be a
Binitarian? There are no statements, as from Jesus, where the Spirit
prays to the Father. Or are there?

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we
know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself
maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be
uttered.

If the Spirit is not a separate person, how
does he intercede? But here is the classic text for the personhood of the
Spirit:

Acts 5:3, 9 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine
heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the
land?...Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together
to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have
buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

Is it possible to lie to or test, to disobey or to grieve, an
impersonal force? (See also Acts 16:16, Eph. 4:30) Or:

John 16:13??? Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is
come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of
himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will
show you things to come.

Acts 13:2?? As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted,
the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto
I have called them.

Acts 15:28?? For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and
to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary
things...

Hebrews 3:7
Wherefore as the Holy Ghost saith, To day
if ye will hear his voice...

1 Tim. 4:1??? Now the Spirit speaketh expressly,
that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to
seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Luke and Darth's "Force" didn't have anything to
say, but the Spirit does, and even uses personal pronouns (Acts
13:2).

Pushback: The Bible has trees speaking [Ps. 96:11-12; Is. 55:12], and
hands and feet speaking [1 Cor. 12:15-16]. It also has names rotting
[Prov. 10:7], land vomiting [Lev. 18:25] and blood crying out [Gen.
4:10]. So what if the Spirit speaks also?

This objection doesn't make the grade: These passages are clearly in
poetic/allegorical genres, whereas the above verses are straight
narrative discourse; furthermore, verses where land vomits or blood cries
is also clearly allegorical, since land and blood have no mouth, but a
spirit is a living and active force and has a means to speak. At the same
time, neither land nor blood ever has such a wide variety of active and
interpersonal-relation verbs applied to them. Blood cries out, but no one
has ever "lied" to blood or had it intercede for them in
prayer. The Spirit is indeed the quiet member of the Trinity in terms of
the reports we have; he was not incarnated among men and converses with
them even now only inwardly. But he clearly does speak, and that's not
what an impersonal force does.

Pushback: 1 Tim. 2:5 says, For there is one God, and one mediator between
God and men, the man Christ Jesus. If the Holy Spirit were a person
co-equal with the Father and Son it would be an affront to exclude him
from some intermediary position.

This objection simply doesn't grasp the meaning of the term
"mediator". It was originally a business term, broadened to
mean any mediator. The word is used by Paul elsewhere to refer to Moses
(Gal. 3:19) and in Hebrews 1:6: "But now hath [Jesus] obtained a
more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better
covenant, which was established upon better promises." (See also
9:15, 12:24) The word refers to a specific function of administration,
not merely a go-between. The Spirit did not and does not serve this
function.

Pushback: The word "spirit" is neuter in gender. How can an
"it" be a person?

John's Gospel twice refers to the Holy Spirit in a masculine gender:
15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the
Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he
shall testify of me: John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is
come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of
himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will
show you things to come. Helpfully the last passage also clarifies
the nature of the relationship of the Spirit to the Father; the Spirit
"proceeds" as Wisdom does.

Pushback: But other objects are assigned gender in the Bible. Even today
we refer to objects like ships in the feminine!

Those who offer this objection -- which I have found -- fail to
provide examples of objects in the Bible being assigned gender. The idea
about ships has no bearing unless one provides evidence that a
"spirit" was referred to thusly even without any notion of
personality.

Finally, there are Trinitarian formula which place the Spirit on a par
with Father and Son (Matt. 28:19, 2 Cor. 13:14). Some may object that
there is nothing that says that the Spirit is a person in these passages,
but it is the burden of proof upon the replier to show that personality
is not part of the Spirit's makeup."

Excerpted from:? The Holy Spirit and the
Trinity Relationship? by James Patrick Holding?

http://www.tektonics.org/qt/quietthird.html

~ Janice

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Received on Fri Nov 9 16:52:36 2007