Re: [asa] Random and natural vs intelligence

John Walley wrote
<<
Lee Strobel is right. You can’t have it both ways. Either God was involved in which it wasn’t random or if it was random then God couldn’t have been involved.
 

This is a valid critique of Collins as well. Fuz Rana interviewed Collins on their radio broadcast and asked him that exact question, how he saw God’s involvement in creation if he accepted the totally random processes of evolution? Collins waffled and said he didn’t know.
>>

Some people recognize the value of adaptive systems.  Rather than build one system for each problem, build a single machine that can more or less manage all of the problems it encounters.  I reckon NASA probably spends a lot of time on that since you cannot ask for a rocket every day when a part fails. Such systems are robust, able to survive when crippled. Sometimes, it is amazing how well thought out a well design system is. 

What about the immunity system.  That is a "random" library that your own body uses every time a pathogen enters your system.  To find an antibody, your own system _select_ an amino acid sequence for the variable region of the structure. That in turn, nabs the offending protein, sends your system into red alert, and brings in the bouncers. That is an adaptive system. 

I find it strange that we view immunity as the "good" adaptation yet evolution is always the "evil" one.  

By Grace we proceed,
Wayne 

-----Original Message-----
From: John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com>
To: 'Randy Isaac' <randyisaac@comcast.net>; asa@calvin.edu
Sent: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 11:35 am
Subject: RE: [asa] Random and natural vs intelligence

Lee Strobel is right. You can’t have it both ways. Either God was involved in which it wasn’t random or if it was random then God couldn’t have been involved.

This is a valid critique of Collins as well. Fuz Rana interviewed Collins on their radio broadcast and asked him that exact question, how he saw God’s involvement in creation if he accepted the totally random processes of evolution? Collins waffled and said he didn’t know.

This is a disingenuous and dishonest critique of ID by TE’s. We all have to accept some level of intelligent design in creation if we affirm God’s role in creation.

John

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Randy Isaac
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 9:26 PM
To: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: [asa] Random and natural vs intelligence

The November 2007 issue of Christianity Today includes a book review titled "Deconstructing Dawkins" in which author Logan Paul Gage critiques McGrath's book "The Dawkins Delusion." I don't think it's available online yet so let me just type in two paragraphs of the article which I think deserve discussion. My point is not to agree or disagree but to say that this is an articulation of a critical point of difference within our communities that needs to be clearly addressed.

"While theists can have a variety of legitimate views on life's evolution, surely they must maintain that the process involves intelligence. So the question is: Can an intelligent being use random mutations and natural selection to create? No. This is not a theological problem; it is a logical one. The words random and natural are meant to exclude intelligence. If God guides which mutations happen, the mutations are not random; if God chooses which organisms survive so as to guide life's evolution, the selection is intelligent rather than natural.

"Theistic Darwinists maintain that God was "intimately involved" in creation, to use Francis Collins's words. But they also think life developed via genuinely random mutations and genuinely natural selection. Yet they never explain what God is doing in this process. Perhaps there is still room for him to start the whole thing off, but this abandons theism for deism."

This is essentially the same argument that Lee Strobel used on the radio a few weeks ago when he firmly but respectfully rebuked Francis Collins. Evolution is inherently random and without guidance and is therefore mutually exclusive with divine guidance, he said.

Randy

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Received on Tue Nov 6 14:57:04 2007