RE: Dick Fisher's "historical basis" remains no less doubtful

>>>>>Dave wrote:
Jack,
Your statements pose a different situation, but with some of the same
problems Dick's view has. How does Adam's fall, one person out of many
alive at the time (with Eve one pair), transmit itself to the entire
race? If the story is figurative, one has to determine the scope of the
metaphor relative to both history and to its explanatory power of the
human state. Any suggestion along these lines will raise objections from
one (or many) quarters. Depending on the evaluator, one extreme view will
make you relevant or damned; the alternate extreme, spouting nonsense or
presenting truth--with a whole range between. So you'll have to determine
your position as best you can, with the expectation of being reviled by
some and acclaimed by others. Unless you have to sign a particular
statement of faith, the evaluation seems to me to lack ultimate
importance. Clearly, not all positions can be correct, one of the
unfortunate consequences of human finitude. I think of Peirce's comment
that all men will acknowledge human finitude while maintaing that on this
point they are right.
Dave
>>>>>

But in fact Adam's fall has transmitted to the entire race (nearly). In
what part of the world do we not take it upon ourselves to improve our life,
rather than allowing God to do this for us? Do we all not see ourselves as
being more important than anyone else? It is a natural condition. Every
animal has an instinct of self preservation, but humans take it one step
further and allow ourselves to become vain. When an animal hunts it is for
survival, when it kills it is in defense. When it has sex it is for mating.
Humans having a spirit which is connected to God, are able to do greater
things, which would not be seen in the animal kingdom, such as giving up
ones own life to save another. But our spirits having been corrupted, can
also conjure up evil, such as killing for pleasure. It of course does not
mean that all MANKIND had fallen immediately upon Adam's FALL but it does
mean that through culture and environment it has nearly reached it's zenith.
And when it does then shall Christ return. Where does it say in the Bible
that the Fall was immediately passed on to all man. Just as Abraham's
descendants would be blessed not his forefathers. As for the Jewish race
being the chosen, I have not read this. God does not concern himself with
an individual race. He sees the human race as a whole. Abraham's
descendants are not his DNA line but his spiritual one. Those who have
chosen to follow the GOD of Abraham. That includes all people willing to
believe. And that is why Christ came the first time. Because just like
today, too many believed at that time that the only ones worthy of being
with God were the Jews and only those who were totally obedient. They may
have been the first but not the last. In addition, you state that if the
fall was universal so must redemption. Why? The fall is universal in so
much as all are capable of falling out of grace. Unfortunately, I do not
know of anyone who has been or will be without sin. This applies to now and
10k yr ago. In fact the fall was so great in the past that God repeatedly
destroyed or allowed the destruction of entire civilizations, not just in
the middle east but in the americas as well. While it is logically possible
for the number of fallen to exceed the forgiven, it is not possible for the
number of redeemed to exceed the fallen, since redeemption is necessitated
by sin. I believe you have it backwards.

Adam was the first to commune with GOD (YHWH), not just any god. He was the
first and he immediately fell out of grace with him. In doing so, God knew
that all man would be the same. Regardless of the communion with HIM we
would eventually fall as individuals just as Adam did. Not all have heard
his word and not all have yet fallen, but that day is coming. To disobey
your boss, mother, father, etc, one must know of the rules and intent of
that person. If you know of God's will and disobey it is then sinful. All
who know him shall sin, but not all who do not. All shall have redemption,
but not all shall be redeemed. Without the WORD one cannot be redeemed but
with the word one is bound to sin. Only through the process of
understanding our own shortcomings can we be saved. God has been trying to
make a point for many years. It is not our failings, but our inability to
admit them. Original sin was and is our arrogance. Only when we are humble
and meek can we be saved.

His will be done.

Don P
Received on Fri Nov 19 00:27:36 2004