Herewith is my response to part 1 of the challenge. I have not yet read
Terry's recent long post so no references to it are included.
I appreciate the dialog.
Hoss (aka Burgy)
http://www.burgy.50megs.com
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The point at issue is what meanings and interpretations to put on the
specific verses in scripture which read:
PS 137:8 O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction,
happy is he who repays you
for what you have done to us--
PS 137:9 he who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks.
Robert Rogland, David Campbell and George Murphy have seen fit to comment on
my recent observation that -- at the least -- these two specific verses
indicate an ethical stance that is inconsistent with the character of God.
BTW, I append the full NIV text of all scripture references to the end of
this note.
I continue, after more thought, to hold this view. The psalmist who wrote
(and presumably sang) those words certainly felt them; nonetheless in so
doing he (or she) perceived the mind of God in an inadequate fashion.
I am sometimes struck, as I suspect many of us are, by the words uttered in
a TV interview of a grieving parent whose child has been brutally murdered
when the topic is about the fate of the murderer. Sometimes words of revenge
are uttered; sometimes, however, words of concern and empathy for the
murderer are uttered. In such cases I can see the love of Christ coming
through the second speaker. Not the first, even though I can sympathize with
her.
The question of biblical inerrancy does not apply in this case, so full
inerrancy can be assumed.. The words exist in the text -- what then do we do
with them?
There are many places in scripture where characters C1, C2,... perform
actions A1, A2, ... . It is my contention that the existence of such
character-actions in scripture, alone, is not a warrant for thinking such
actions are commanded by God for us. I will cite three examples of this.
1. The casting of lots (dice?) to make decisions. This is a common biblical
practice, performed by many different characters over a long span of time.
Sometimes it seems to make a little sense, as in Joshua 18:6 where chance
seems to be as good a way as any to divide the land. At another time it
seems to assume the gods will direct the casting, as in Jonah 1:7. But, of
course, this is a parable-story and perhaps we can accept it as such.
In Luke 23:24 the clothing of Jesus is divided this way -- again, a chance
division makes sense. But in Acts 1:26, the eleven remaining disciples are
deciding a serious question. They decide they need a twelfth; they choose
Mathias by casting lots. Here, it makes no sense to do this by chance, and,
indeed, I have heard a sermon suggesting that the action was out of God's
will, as Paul was to be the twelfth disciple.
So what do we do in the 21st century? Well, we still cast lots for some
decisions, but on most decisions we study, argue, and ultimately vote. In
other words, we do not follow the disciples' lead in Acts 1:6. Not even the
biblical inerrantist.
2. In Genesis 19:6 Lot, who was a "good man," offers up his two virgin
daughters to the rabble outside his door to protect his guests. Now I admit
that this was a terrible situation, one which all of us sincerely hope we
will never approach. My guess is that Lot, in terror, made the offer because
he hoped to be able to continue the arguments through closed doors and that
he had no intention of a follow through. But whatever Lot's intentions, I
think none of us would ever consider such an action to be moral or ethical.
3. My last example is Genesis 30:37-39, in which it is reported that Jacob
was successful in producing spotted lambs by having the sheep look at peeled
sticks during mating. Is there any rancher, regardless how pious, who
follows this practice in raising his flock?
OK. Three examples are enough. My thesis is, of course, that the ending of
Psalm 137 represents NOT God's command to us as to how we OUGHT to feel, but
simply the recorded response to the psalmist who DID feel this way. Its
inclusion in scripture (for the inerrantist) can be taken simply as an
expression that God does not get bent out of shape when we get really really
mad.
Robert Rogland comments that the verse is a declaration that the sins of the
Babylonians were so great that the pious could rejoice. The operative word
there is "could." I do not think substituting the word "should," for
example, would be correct.
Robert also had much to say about the wrath of God, etc. which I think is
off the subject and so I will not comment.
George's post does not address Ps 137 directly, but he does suggest (points
G and H) that there is ethical advances within scripture. I grant this
observation; I am less comfortable with the concept that God's ethics are
also evolving.
David Campbell observes that for me to hold the position above requires the
assumption that my own perceived view of right and wrong is superior to that
of the author. I think David is correct. I do hold this assumption; I do not
see how it can be avoided. We all operate from this kind of perspective.
None of us perfectly, of course. We all these days cheerfully deplore the
killing of innocents by suicide bombers, but (perhaps) have a different view
of Hiroshima, and probably no view at all of Dresden's Fire bombing (unless
we've read Vonegout's "Slaughterhouse Five."
David's response to my "pick and choose" argument I find unpersuasive, but
this post being too long already I'll pass on that subject.
David's response to my question "Tell me what message in Ps 139:9 is rather
good. He makes five separate points and I think they would stand up in any
sermon on the Psalm.
At this point, I will ring off. I very much appreciate the dialog, on this
and other topics here on the list. I learn from it. Sometimes perhaps more
slowly than I ought to. <G>
Burgy (relevant scriptures follow)
PS 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon we sat and wept
when we remembered Zion.
PS 137:2 There on the poplars
we hung our harps,
PS 137:3 for there our captors asked us for songs,
our tormentors demanded songs of joy;
they said, "Sing us one of the songs of Zion!"
PS 137:4 How can we sing the songs of the LORD
while in a foreign land?
PS 137:5 If I forget you, O Jerusalem,
may my right hand forget its skill.
PS 137:6 May my tongue cling to the roof of my mouth
if I do not remember you,
if I do not consider Jerusalem
my highest joy.
PS 137:7 Remember, O LORD, what the Edomites did
on the day Jerusalem fell.
"Tear it down," they cried,
"tear it down to its foundations!"
PS 137:8 O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction,
happy is he who repays you
for what you have done to us--
PS 137:9 he who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks.
JOS 18:3 So Joshua said to the Israelites: "How long will you wait before
you begin to take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your
fathers, has given you? 4 Appoint three men from each tribe. I will send
them out to make a survey of the land and to write a description of it,
according to the inheritance of each. Then they will return to me. 5 You are
to divide the land into seven parts. Judah is to remain in its territory on
the south and the house of Joseph in its territory on the north. 6 After you
have written descriptions of the seven parts of the land, bring them here to
me and I will cast lots for you in the presence of the LORD our God.
JNH 1:7 Then the sailors said to each other, "Come, let us cast lots to find
out who is responsible for this calamity." They cast lots and the lot fell
on Jonah.
AC 1:23 So they proposed two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as
Justus) and Matthias. 24 Then they prayed, "Lord, you know everyone's heart.
Show us which of these two you have chosen 25 to take over this apostolic
ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs." 26 Then they cast lots,
and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.
LK 23:34 Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they
are doing." And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.
GE 19:6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him
7 and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing.
8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man.
Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them.
But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection
of my roof."
GE 30:37 Jacob, however, took fresh-cut branches from poplar, almond and
plane trees and made white stripes on them by peeling the bark and exposing
the white inner wood of the branches. 38 Then he placed the peeled branches
in all the watering troughs, so that they would be directly in front of the
flocks when they came to drink. When the flocks were in heat and came to
drink, 39 they mated in front of the branches. And they bore young that were
streaked or speckled or spotted.
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