Hello Mike,
> AT: If Adam was simply an illustration, then Adam
> could not have been
> the cause of the condemnation ...
>
> Mike: Because Adam in paradise could not manage to obey one simple
> command from
> God, he clearly demonstrated that he and the entire human
> race, including
> those who had lived before him and those who would live after
> him, were
> undeserving of eternal life.
> I believe it was with this fact in mind that Paul could quite
> accurately
> refer to Adam when he wrote, "By one man's disobedience many
> were constituted
> sinners." (Romans 5:19, Amplified Bible) "Constitute" means
> "to establish
> formally."
AT: Nowhere in Scripture, including Rom 5:19, is there any clear suggestion
that "humans in the image of God" existed prior to Adam.
=======
> Mike: After Adam failed a simple God given test of his
> righteousness, I believe God
> had good reason to retroactively condemn the entire human
> race as being
> deserving of the deaths they had been suffering, and
> undeserving of eternal
> life, a gift God had not yet given to any human being.
AT: I honestly don't see any evidence of this in Scripture. You seem to have
begun with permise that humans existed prior to Adam, and then attempt to
define doctrine based on that. I would suggest we do it the other way
around, by defining doctrine (or at least, the boundaries) first. There is
no way that scientific data can resolve this issue of whether any groups of
hominids were in the image of God or not (which is my definition of being
human), and therefore, one cannot begin by drawing a scientifc conclusion
about human origin, and then try to see it the bible will somehow fit into
that understanding.
=====
> No one disobeyed God before Adam. Adam was the first person
> who was put under
> any God given law.
AT: I agree. But my reason is because there were no humans prior to Adam.
=====
> Mike: Romans 5:12 tells us that "sin entered into the world through
> one man, and
> death through sin." But as we read further we find that the
> kind of "sin"
> that first entered into the world through Adam, the "sin", which was
> responsible for bringing about his "death", was the "sin" of
> "breaking a
> command". (verse 14) And we are told that the kind of sin
> that was committed
> by Adam "is not taken into account (or imputed KJV, NAS) when
> there is no
> law." (verse 13)
>
> There was no law before Adam. Verses 13 tells us that "before
> the law [to
> Adam] was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken
> into account (or
> imputed) when there is no law." Thus the "sin" that "was in
> the world"
> "before the law [to Adam] was given" must have been a
> different kind of sin
> than Adam's sin. It must have been unimputed sin.
AT: I think you have made a critical mistake here. The "law" that is
referred to is not the command to Adam not to eat of the fruit. Paul, as a
Jewish Rabbi, is talking about the law of Moses.
=====
> Mike: How does Romans 5: 12-14 connect the "man" of Gen. 1:26,27
> with the "Adam" of
> Gen. 2? I don't see that it does.
AT: Sorry, I have misunderstood your earlier point on this. However, the man
of Gen 1:27 refers to all humans, while the "adam" of Gen 2 refers to a
specific instance of the collective, and in this case, has been understand
by Paul and the early church fathers as the single, original man.
========
> You wrote: It is correct that Gen 9:6 is talking about the
> sanctity of all
> human life, but the traiditonal understanding is that all human life
> descended from Adam.
>
> Mike: Many here believe that "the traditional understanding" is in error.
AT: Of course I disagree with the "many". I don't think you have made a
convincing case at this point that for about 2000 years, the general
accepted understanding of this particular doctrine of man has been WRONG!
And by implication, if the church could have been wrong on her understanding
of humanity and how death came about, then the church could have also been
wrong on a number of other doctrines. Where is the Holy Spirit who will lead
in all truth as jesus promised?
Puzzled,
Adrian.
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Tue Apr 23 2002 - 13:51:57 EDT