On Wed, 03 Apr 2002 14:48:19 -0500 Jan de Koning <jan@dekoning.ca>
writes:
At 12:08 PM 03/04/02 -0700, D. F. Siemens, Jr. wrote:
This is clearly an attempt to twist matters. My statement clearly
specifies that the time of this uncreated universe is what we have at
present. In plain language, it is a denial that there is a t=0. It seems
you are trying to import the notion of creation into what can at most be
a matter of forming or possibly reforming a deity/universe without
beginning, therefore, without creation as the term is normally used.
What do you consider to be "time" ? God created "time" as part of our
created universe. That we cannot imagine what it is to be outside "time"
does not mean that "time" is not created. Another question is: What is
"eternity" where God lives? Is it possible for God to have another
created "universe" with a completely different understanding of "time",
and five-dimensional?
That we cannot imagine it, does not mean it does not exist. For me
talking about "before creation" becomes nonsense. We don't know anything
about a"before creation." Maybe it does not exist. "Before" is a human
word,
Jan de K.
Jan,
You have totally missed the context of my statement which, as one
possibility in a process theology context, requires the denial of
creation. In this context eternity is simply time, as we recognize it,
without a terminus a quo, and the terminus ad quem a moving present. You
should have recognize that my statement is part of a multi-part reductio
ad absurdum of process theology.
I wholeheartedly agree with you that, on our orthodox assumptions, there
is no time before creation. But I also note that the apostle had to use
such locutions to speak of predestination (Ephesians 1:4; II Timothy 1:9)
and our Lord used similar language (John 17:5, 24). In each case, the
preposition is pro (the phrasing in Timothy is amazing).
Finally, take note that all words (including the famous "Adam, wer bis
du?" and the "tongues of men and angel" as uttered) are human.
Dave
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