Re: Fair to Keith Miller

From: Bill Payne (bpayne15@juno.com)
Date: Thu Feb 22 2001 - 12:46:32 EST

  • Next message: James Mahaffy: "Re: Coal Data"

    I appreciate your feedback, James. I'll need to mull it over for a few
    days; I don't at the moment feel that I was wrong although, based upon
    our history, I will probably come around to seeing things your way.

    On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 07:19:55 -0600 James Mahaffy <mahaffy@mtcnet.net>
    writes:

    > First you attack Keith by associating him with Genie. While both Genie
    > and Keith like the new standards, Genie is no friend to Christian
    > faith.

    Why is an association with Genie an attack? Apart from their religious
    views, their beliefs are identical as far as I can tell, which is what I
    was saying. It bothers me somewhat that a Christian and an atheist can
    have identical beliefs about origins, except for Keith's belief that God
    is behind it. I guess that is fundamentally what TE is, that God left no
    fingerprints?

    Incidentally, I realize that God will use all of us in different ways to
    reach different people. Keith is obviously boldly proclaiming his faith
    in his own way, for which I have the utmost respect.

    > I am sure you would not like us to generalize that your position is the
    same as every > YEC.

    If that were true, then it wouldn't matter what I "would not like."

    > Second you say, "to be candid in the presentation of *all* of the data,
    > then you [Keith] would blunt the criticism you rightly receive." Bill,
    > Keith is a person of integrity and very knowledgeable. That does not
    > make his position right but this attack is not fair. As you may know,
    I
    > disagreed and still do with his interpretation of the Cambrian (see
    > archives for last May), but I very much respected his command of the
    > literature. Disagree with Keith by all means but disagree with his
    > postion and don't attack his integrity.

    James, if Keith does in fact withhold data (or actually, I suppose, fail
    to mention the things that his data cannot explain) then his actions are
    open for criticisms. I did *not* say that he has a lack of integrity or
    knowledge, just that he deserves the criticism he receives.

    Perhaps I am more sensitive to this because of my experience with the way
    coal data is interpreted, or IMHO, misinterpreted. I will make a
    separate post to illustrate this, but the point to be made is that our
    interpretations of data are not always accurate, and evolution is an
    interpretation. This is rarely mentioned; evolution is presented as a
    fact about which there is no controversy among scientists and educated
    people.
     
    > Sometimes this list is dominated by articulate folks of a TE position
    > and we need ASA folks of a different perspective like you Bill active
    on
    > the list. Lets just be careful in the way we pick on each other.

    If you're complaining about the tenor of my post, then let me just go
    ahead and agree that I probably could have softened it, and for that I do
    apologize to Keith and the group.

    By the way, Keith, you said: "You will notice a comment by John Weister.
     I want to be on the record, as an intimate participant in this whole
    affair, that his characterization of the standards is completely false.
    [snip]
    BTW: For those who heard my comments at the last ASA meeting, you will
    find
    in this article examples of several of the misunderstandings and
    misrepresentations of science that I discussed."

    In your opinion, Keith, is John's "false" characterization of the
    standards a result of misunderstanding or misrepresentation? Personally,
    I would think John is well versed in these issues and would not be guilty
    of misunderstanding the intent of the standards.

    Bill



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