Often people discuss biblical events to similar events in other cultures. I do not know if that is done to undermine the Bible or else to indicate that the biblical writers got the material from earlier cultures. Now to a Christians, we have human (animal) sacrifice in a sense going back to Abraham. From evolutionary theory, we have common descent and so whenever animal sacrifice started; it propagated forward in time in succeeding cultures. Therefore, it may be that the practice in different cultures had the same common origin.
Moorad
________________________________
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of dfsiemensjr [dfsiemensjr@juno.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 4:19 PM
To: bernie.dehler@intel.com
Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] Re: (religious memes?) [christians_in_science] Brilliant article by Dawkins
Sounds as though you are trying to make Moses the inventor of terms for sin. The /Science/that arrived this week (27 August, p. 972) notes that during the Shang Dynasty in China, with a date matching the earliest possible for Moses, there were human and animal sacrifices and the worship of a supreme deity. Must a supreme deity be a false god? I do not know how early human beings, whether /Homo sapiens/ or an ancestor, worshiped and sacrificed or were aware of guilt. How the activities and notions arose is another question. Why a meme encompassing such notions should survive is yet another.
Another thought comes to mind. I recall hearing of a tribe who sacrificed to evil spirits to appease them. The tribe recognized a supreme being whom they recognized as so good that he would not harm them. But they were scared of what the spirits would do to them if not placated. Sounds as though they had some notion of God without revelation.
Dave (ASA)
On Fri, 28 Aug 2009 18:59:53 -0700 "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com<mailto:bernie.dehler@intel.com>> writes:
Dave said:
“I also noted what involves anthropological and archeological evidence antedating the 15th century B.C.”
I don’t understand your point- can you re-state it? Is your point that the practice of animals being sacrificed for sin antedate Moses who instituted the sacrificial system for sin? You said: “Even if the existence of Abel and Noah are discounted, one has to recognize that there were animal sacrifices before Moses came along.” Can you elaborate on that and how it applies to the discussion? Are we both saying that there was a sacrificial system for sin before Moses came along- the difference being that prior to Moses the sacrifices were to, what you would consider, false gods? (A deist/atheist would say that all gods of the OT/NT are false… not believing in Yahweh, the god of the bible.)
…Bernie
________________________________
From: dfsiemensjr [mailto:dfsiemensjr@juno.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 1:26 PM
To: Dehler, Bernie
Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] Re: (religious memes?) [christians_in_science] Brilliant article by Dawkins
Looks like you're hung up on one line of evidence. I also noted what involves anthropological and archeological evidence antedating the 15th century B.C.
Dave (ASA)
On Thu, 27 Aug 2009 12:40:47 -0700 "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com<mailto:bernie.dehler@intel.com>> writes:
Unfortunately, Abel is not a real historical person (since Adam is also not a real historical figure)- I side with Christian TE’s who say that, as Denis Lamoureux. So I don’t want to argue that- you can argue that with the faction of TE’s who defend it.
Where did this story of Abel (Genesis) come from? Moses? Moses may have written part of it, but Sparks thinks Moses is not the only author of Genesis and Genesis has been redacted. The Genesis stories are based/influenced on other pre-existing ANE material. I agree with the TE’s that think that.
…Bernie
________________________________
From: dfsiemensjr [mailto:dfsiemensjr@juno.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 12:01 PM
To: Dehler, Bernie
Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] Re: (religious memes?) [christians_in_science] Brilliant article by Dawkins
Bernie,
You should recall that Abel sacrificed a lamb and Noah sacrificed after the flood. Even if the existence of Abel and Noah are discounted, one has to recognize that there were animal sacrifices before Moses came along.
Dave (ASA)
On Thu, 27 Aug 2009 11:08:17 -0700 "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com<mailto:bernie.dehler@intel.com>> writes:
David Clounch said:
“So you are saying the atonement sacrifices prior to Moses were real and had meaning and weren't just part of some untrue pagan religion?”
What I was thinking is this:
1. Jesus died for our sins. Why is death required?
2. Because it is fulfillment of sacrificial system introduced by Moses from God.
Therefore, one might think this was God’s unique plan. So, doesn’t it weaken (and I think fatally weaken) the whole point to discover that sacrifice for sin was practiced by other cultures prior to Moses (like the idea of ‘throw the virgin into the volcano to pacify the angry gods to end the draught’)? Same with circumcision.
So- what were these ancient near east precursors? That is the fun of reading Sparks’ book:
"Ancient Texts For The Study Of The Hebrew Bible: A Guide To The Background Literature."
http://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Texts-Study-Hebrew-Bible/dp/1565634071/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_2/189-9860859-6596268
____________________________________________________________
Free information on scholarships for college, university or tech school. Click now!<http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2142/fc/BLSrjpTEakCpDiObnGw5pTPcOFgrNBqz8Y12PMUPRSYS8GPCijlSlYu0VNG/>
To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
Received on Sat Aug 29 16:47:49 2009
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.8 : Sat Aug 29 2009 - 16:47:49 EDT