Sounds as though you are trying to make Moses the inventor of terms for
sin. The /Science/that arrived this week (27 August, p. 972) notes that
during the Shang Dynasty in China, with a date matching the earliest
possible for Moses, there were human and animal sacrifices and the
worship of a supreme deity. Must a supreme deity be a false god? I do not
know how early human beings, whether /Homo sapiens/ or an ancestor,
worshiped and sacrificed or were aware of guilt. How the activities and
notions arose is another question. Why a meme encompassing such notions
should survive is yet another.
Another thought comes to mind. I recall hearing of a tribe who sacrificed
to evil spirits to appease them. The tribe recognized a supreme being
whom they recognized as so good that he would not harm them. But they
were scared of what the spirits would do to them if not placated. Sounds
as though they had some notion of God without revelation.
Dave (ASA)
On Fri, 28 Aug 2009 18:59:53 -0700 "Dehler, Bernie"
<bernie.dehler@intel.com> writes:
Dave said:
“I also noted what involves anthropological and archeological evidence
antedating the 15th century B.C.”
I don’t understand your point- can you re-state it? Is your point that
the practice of animals being sacrificed for sin antedate Moses who
instituted the sacrificial system for sin? You said: “Even if the
existence of Abel and Noah are discounted, one has to recognize that
there were animal sacrifices before Moses came along.” Can you elaborate
on that and how it applies to the discussion? Are we both saying that
there was a sacrificial system for sin before Moses came along- the
difference being that prior to Moses the sacrifices were to, what you
would consider, false gods? (A deist/atheist would say that all gods of
the OT/NT are false… not believing in Yahweh, the god of the bible.)
…Bernie
From: dfsiemensjr [mailto:dfsiemensjr@juno.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 1:26 PM
To: Dehler, Bernie
Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] Re: (religious memes?) [christians_in_science]
Brilliant article by Dawkins
Looks like you're hung up on one line of evidence. I also noted what
involves anthropological and archeological evidence antedating the 15th
century B.C.
Dave (ASA)
On Thu, 27 Aug 2009 12:40:47 -0700 "Dehler, Bernie"
<bernie.dehler@intel.com> writes:
Unfortunately, Abel is not a real historical person (since Adam is also
not a real historical figure)- I side with Christian TE’s who say that,
as Denis Lamoureux. So I don’t want to argue that- you can argue that
with the faction of TE’s who defend it.
Where did this story of Abel (Genesis) come from? Moses? Moses may have
written part of it, but Sparks thinks Moses is not the only author of
Genesis and Genesis has been redacted. The Genesis stories are
based/influenced on other pre-existing ANE material. I agree with the
TE’s that think that.
…Bernie
From: dfsiemensjr [mailto:dfsiemensjr@juno.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 12:01 PM
To: Dehler, Bernie
Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] Re: (religious memes?) [christians_in_science]
Brilliant article by Dawkins
Bernie,
You should recall that Abel sacrificed a lamb and Noah sacrificed after
the flood. Even if the existence of Abel and Noah are discounted, one has
to recognize that there were animal sacrifices before Moses came along.
Dave (ASA)
On Thu, 27 Aug 2009 11:08:17 -0700 "Dehler, Bernie"
<bernie.dehler@intel.com> writes:
David Clounch said:
“So you are saying the atonement sacrifices prior to Moses were real
and had meaning and weren't just part of some untrue pagan religion?”
What I was thinking is this:
Jesus died for our sins. Why is death required?
Because it is fulfillment of sacrificial system introduced by Moses from
God.
Therefore, one might think this was God’s unique plan. So, doesn’t it
weaken (and I think fatally weaken) the whole point to discover that
sacrifice for sin was practiced by other cultures prior to Moses (like
the idea of ‘throw the virgin into the volcano to pacify the angry gods
to end the draught’)? Same with circumcision.
So- what were these ancient near east precursors? That is the fun of
reading Sparks’ book:
"Ancient Texts For The Study Of The Hebrew Bible: A Guide To The
Background Literature."
http://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Texts-Study-Hebrew-Bible/dp/1565634071/ref=
ntt_at_ep_dpt_2/189-9860859-6596268
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