Re: [asa] Re: (religious memes?) [christians_in_science] Brilliant article by Dawkins

Moorad,
Some unbelievers will use common human activities to try to undermine
Hebreo-Christian beliefs. The alternative is to recognize that there is
something basic in being human to which revelation speaks. Otherwise,
"The heavens declare the glory of God" applies only to those with
revelation and the first part of Romans is false.
Dave (ASA)

On Sat, 29 Aug 2009 16:47:04 -0400 "Alexanian, Moorad"
<alexanian@uncw.edu> writes:
> Often people discuss biblical events to similar events in other
> cultures. I do not know if that is done to undermine the Bible or
> else to indicate that the biblical writers got the material from
> earlier cultures. Now to a Christians, we have human (animal)
> sacrifice in a sense going back to Abraham. From evolutionary
> theory, we have common descent and so whenever animal sacrifice
> started; it propagated forward in time in succeeding cultures.
> Therefore, it may be that the practice in different cultures had the
> same common origin.
> Moorad
> ________________________________
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
> Behalf Of dfsiemensjr [dfsiemensjr@juno.com]
> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 4:19 PM
> To: bernie.dehler@intel.com
> Cc: asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: Re: [asa] Re: (religious memes?) [christians_in_science]
> Brilliant article by Dawkins
>
> Sounds as though you are trying to make Moses the inventor of terms
> for sin. The /Science/that arrived this week (27 August, p. 972)
> notes that during the Shang Dynasty in China, with a date matching
> the earliest possible for Moses, there were human and animal
> sacrifices and the worship of a supreme deity. Must a supreme deity
> be a false god? I do not know how early human beings, whether /Homo
> sapiens/ or an ancestor, worshiped and sacrificed or were aware of
> guilt. How the activities and notions arose is another question. Why
> a meme encompassing such notions should survive is yet another.
>
> Another thought comes to mind. I recall hearing of a tribe who
> sacrificed to evil spirits to appease them. The tribe recognized a
> supreme being whom they recognized as so good that he would not harm
> them. But they were scared of what the spirits would do to them if
> not placated. Sounds as though they had some notion of God without
> revelation.
> Dave (ASA)
>
> On Fri, 28 Aug 2009 18:59:53 -0700 "Dehler, Bernie"
> <bernie.dehler@intel.com<mailto:bernie.dehler@intel.com>> writes:
> Dave said:
> “I also noted what involves anthropological and archeological
> evidence antedating the 15th century B.C.”
>
> I don’t understand your point- can you re-state it? Is your point
> that the practice of animals being sacrificed for sin antedate Moses
> who instituted the sacrificial system for sin? You said: “Even if
> the existence of Abel and Noah are discounted, one has to recognize
> that there were animal sacrifices before Moses came along.” Can you
> elaborate on that and how it applies to the discussion? Are we both
> saying that there was a sacrificial system for sin before Moses came
> along- the difference being that prior to Moses the sacrifices were
> to, what you would consider, false gods? (A deist/atheist would say
> that all gods of the OT/NT are false… not believing in Yahweh, the
> god of the bible.)
>
> …Bernie
> ________________________________
> From: dfsiemensjr [mailto:dfsiemensjr@juno.com]
> Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 1:26 PM
> To: Dehler, Bernie
> Cc: asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: Re: [asa] Re: (religious memes?) [christians_in_science]
> Brilliant article by Dawkins
>
> Looks like you're hung up on one line of evidence. I also noted what
> involves anthropological and archeological evidence antedating the
> 15th century B.C.
> Dave (ASA)
>
> On Thu, 27 Aug 2009 12:40:47 -0700 "Dehler, Bernie"
> <bernie.dehler@intel.com<mailto:bernie.dehler@intel.com>> writes:
> Unfortunately, Abel is not a real historical person (since Adam is
> also not a real historical figure)- I side with Christian TE’s who
> say that, as Denis Lamoureux. So I don’t want to argue that- you
> can argue that with the faction of TE’s who defend it.
>
> Where did this story of Abel (Genesis) come from? Moses? Moses may
> have written part of it, but Sparks thinks Moses is not the only
> author of Genesis and Genesis has been redacted. The Genesis
> stories are based/influenced on other pre-existing ANE material. I
> agree with the TE’s that think that.
>
> …Bernie
>
> ________________________________
> From: dfsiemensjr [mailto:dfsiemensjr@juno.com]
> Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 12:01 PM
> To: Dehler, Bernie
> Cc: asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: Re: [asa] Re: (religious memes?) [christians_in_science]
> Brilliant article by Dawkins
>
> Bernie,
> You should recall that Abel sacrificed a lamb and Noah sacrificed
> after the flood. Even if the existence of Abel and Noah are
> discounted, one has to recognize that there were animal sacrifices
> before Moses came along.
> Dave (ASA)
>
> On Thu, 27 Aug 2009 11:08:17 -0700 "Dehler, Bernie"
> <bernie.dehler@intel.com<mailto:bernie.dehler@intel.com>> writes:
> David Clounch said:
> “So you are saying the atonement sacrifices prior to Moses were real
> and had meaning and weren't just part of some untrue pagan
> religion?”
>
> What I was thinking is this:
>
> 1. Jesus died for our sins. Why is death required?
> 2. Because it is fulfillment of sacrificial system introduced by
> Moses from God.
>
> Therefore, one might think this was God’s unique plan. So, doesn’t
> it weaken (and I think fatally weaken) the whole point to discover
> that sacrifice for sin was practiced by other cultures prior to
> Moses (like the idea of ‘throw the virgin into the volcano to pacify
> the angry gods to end the draught’)? Same with circumcision.
>
> So- what were these ancient near east precursors? That is the fun of
> reading Sparks’ book:
> "Ancient Texts For The Study Of The Hebrew Bible: A Guide To The
> Background Literature."
>
http://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Texts-Study-Hebrew-Bible/dp/1565634071/ref=
ntt_at_ep_dpt_2/189-9860859-6596268
>
>
>
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>

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Received on Sat Aug 29 17:11:50 2009