Re: [asa] baby-making (was: Two questions... (bottlenecking))

Bernie,

Can I first say that I am truly sorry to hear of your tragic loss.
I've not experienced such a thing, and can only begin to imagine how
it must feel.

While one can go into arguments about whether on not God intended to
make a child that would die shortly after birth like that, I don't
think you can say (and this was the point at issue) that this child,
for whom you cared enough to pray earnestly for a miracle, was a
"piece of biological junk". (And if you do, try asking your wife if
she feels the same way about it!)

You ask what about a baby naturally aborted a day after it is
conceived (not born but conceived).

Well, I'm not a woman; I don't know quite what it feels like to be
pregnant. But I know that as soon as my wife was confirmed pregnant
with our first child, as far as we both were concerned, there was a
person inside her who was growing. And each day my wife would
gleefully make a little sign with her hands to show the size the
embryo could be expected to be at this moment. And if, after six
weeks she had miscarried (thankfully she didn't - that child is 18 now
and as stroppy as you like!), the grief we would both have felt would
have been just as genuine (though likely a lot less severe) as the
grief you felt. And the suggestion that the miscarried child was a
piece of junk is frankly in dreadful taste. But that of course is
after you know about the pregnancy. You asked about the say after
conceived. Nowadays that would be something we'd not know about.
But suppose in the future a Star-Trek-esque scanning device (I believe
the technical term is "Medical Tricorder") could actually detect the
presence of a viable embryo seconds after conception, and you knew
then that the woman was pregnant. Do you not think that the grief
would be just the same, just as genuine as with the miscarriage after
six weeks?

Iain

On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 6:29 PM, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com> wrote:
> What about a baby that is naturally aborted a day after it is conceived (not born, but conceived)? Is that a beautiful person that God knitted together?
>
> It is easy to make a claim and then say that all exceptions are "mysteries."
>
> One can say that God makes everything beautiful, and if there's a problem, it is a "mystery." I think it is better to be realistic and say God is not responsible for biological garbage... and there is tons of it being made on a daily basis.
>
> I never said who or what is biological garbage. I never said Hellen Keller was garbage. We are all broken in different ways. No one is perfect on the outside or inside. But I don't see any beauty or value in so many natural abortions- women are not even aware of them because they happen so early. Then there are also lots of freaks of nature, such as two-headed people, those born without a brain, etc. How can anyone think that God knitted those together, literally? Sometimes these conjoined twins are separated, and one dies. God's will?
>
> Sometimes there is biological garbage. But I'm not saying what is or isn't garbage- it is not black and white (grey zone with black and white on the edges- just like most others things in life).
>
> I love all the kids in my family (direct and extended); and yes, some have special needs. I don't look at special needs kids as "junk." I agree with everything you wrote in your last paragraph. But at the same time, there is lots of biological junk being made, I think.
>
> I do stand against those who claim that God made us special and individually, such as Rick Warren in his 40 Days of Purpose book. How do you explain that to a parent who lost a child due to birth defects? I experienced that. I don't think it was my sin or the kid's sin that caused the problem, and I don't think God intended to make a baby that would die shortly after birth. And yes, me and my wife strove and prayed for a miracle, as we knew it was going to happen (sudden death after birth) because of the ultrasound check-ups.
>
> ...Bernie
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Christine Smith
> Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 9:59 AM
> To: asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: RE: [asa] baby-making (was: Two questions... (bottlenecking))
>
> Bernie,
>
> You wrote:
> "I think the obvious answer is that God does not literally "knit us together" in our mother's womb, because if He did, it meant He was making retarded and other such (junk) babies. Yes- junk, because some of it is not viable and dies in the womb or shortly thereafter."
>
> Quite frankly, I am horrified by this statement. The utility or biological functionality of a person has nothing to do with determining the value of a person. There are no babies that are "junk" - all are loved and valued by God, regardless of how short their life may be or how broken their bodies are. Indeed, in II Corinthians 12:9, Paul writes "And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me." and in John 9:2-3, it's written "And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him."
>
> What may be "junk" to you may be a beautiful person through which God works. And who knows what they will accomplish, both in this life, and in the life to come in God's kingdom? Was Helen Keller a junk baby? How about those who compete in the Special Olympics? Are disabled children not the "least of these"? Disabled children are as much a gift to us as non-disabled children, perhaps even more so because they help us see what is really important in life; they give us a different perspective. They help us to see that the value of a person is NOT in their utility or their biological functionality, its in their very being--their being loved by God, which is root of all human worth.
>
> In Christ,
> Christine
>
>
>
> "For we walk by faith, not by sight" ~II Corinthians 5:7
>
> Help save the life of a homeless animal--visit www.azrescue.org to find out how.
>
> Recycling a single aluminum can conserves enough energy to power your TV for 3 hours--Reduce, Reuse, Recycle! Learn more at www.cleanup.org
>
>
> --- On Tue, 2/17/09, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com> wrote:
>
>> From: Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
>> Subject: RE: [asa] baby-making (was: Two questions... (bottlenecking))
>> To:
>> Cc: "ASA" <asa@calvin.edu>
>> Date: Tuesday, February 17, 2009, 11:22 AM
>> I think the obvious answer is that God does not literally
>> "knit us together" in our mother's womb,
>> because if He did, it meant He was making retarded and other
>> such (junk) babies. Yes- junk, because some of it is not
>> viable and dies in the womb or shortly thereafter.
>>
>>
>>
>> Instead, God invented the evolutionary process to create
>> physical beings- which is brilliant because there's no
>> better way of doing it (other than creation by fiat which
>> would create an unrealistic world, because no one would be
>> able to trust their senses if things were made by fiat).
>>
>>
>>
>> ...Bernie
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
>> [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Dick
>> Fischer
>> Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 9:27 PM
>> To: 'David Clounch'
>> Cc: ASA
>> Subject: RE: [asa] Two questions... (bottlenecking)
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi David:
>>
>>
>>
>> Certainly I don't have any good answers. I think God
>> cares more for hearts
>>
>> that are perfect toward Him than He seems to about physical
>> death and
>>
>> suffering which is simply part of life.
>>
>>
>>
>> Dick Fischer, GPA president
>>
>> Genesis Proclaimed Association
>>
>> "Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and History"
>>
>> www.genesisproclaimed.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> From: David Clounch [mailto:david.clounch@gmail.com]
>>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 12:13 PM
>>
>> To: Dick Fischer
>>
>> Cc: ASA
>>
>> Subject: Re: [asa] Two questions... (bottlenecking)
>>
>>
>>
>> Dick,
>>
>>
>>
>> Its a very good question. Does God allow us to be born
>> even though He
>>
>> knows something horrible will affect our lives and make us
>> miserable.
>>
>> Its the "problem of pain" all over again.
>>
>> Did God cause all this pain? If so, is He still good?
>> Seems to me
>>
>> this question is something we all have to deal with.
>>
>>
>>
>> If God allows pain is He good. If by allowing it He causes
>> it, is He
>>
>> still good? Terrible questions, aren't they?
>>
>>
>>
>> -Dave
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 5:34 PM, Dick Fischer
>> <dickfischer@verizon.net>
>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > I hope he didn't have Down's Syndrome.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Dick Fischer, GPA president
>>
>> > Genesis Proclaimed Association
>>
>> > "Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and
>> History"
>>
>> > www.genesisproclaimed.org
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>>
>> > From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
>> [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
>>
>> > Behalf Of David Clounch
>>
>> > Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 5:50 AM
>>
>> > To: asa@calvin.edu
>>
>> > Subject: Re: [asa] Two questions... (bottlenecking)
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Yesterday a friend was buried. On the card from his
>> service was Psalms
>>
>> > 139:13-16.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > verse 16 says,
>>
>> >
>>
>> > " Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;
>>
>> > And in Your book were all written
>>
>> > The days that were ordained for me,
>>
>> > When as yet there was not one of them. " NASV
>>
>> >
>>
>> > This Psalm raises an interesting idea. God knew all
>> the details and
>>
>> > design of the man's life long before he was born.
>> And ordained
>>
>> > (pre-planned) his days and fate.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Sounds like design to me.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > And I cant see where there is any way any series of
>> natural processes
>>
>> > can produce any such pre-planned creature or detailed
>> days of his
>>
>> > life. Not without massive tinkering and interference
>> with the flow of
>>
>> > natural processes.
>>
>> >
>
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