RE: [asa] baby-making (was: Two questions... (bottlenecking))

Bernie:

The discussion here appears to be a specific case of what is called the problem of evil. The child that is born still born, or is born to live but a few hours.

You attempt to "understand" such events. You want to be able to explain it. In one sense the explanation is simple. The child was malformed in her mother's womb. Perhaps there was a genetic defect. This and similar remarks would suffice for science. Of course, the modern scientist is to have no teleology. Nothing is to be said of purposes, i.e., nothing is permitted in the explanation that would link the future (intentional, telos, goal) to any present events. Events are only permitted to be explained by antecedent events. This is what we mean by causal.

As a Christian, we may be willing to accept these constraints as a professional scientist; however, it is not enough for a living person. So the question arises as to where God is in the death of the still born.

The kinds of answers we expect of such a question reflects our prior understanding of how God relates to His creation in general. Do we believe God hears, or even answers, prayer? Do we believe that God can and does suspend or overturn what we call physical law? What is the nature of physical law? Do we believe that God only interacts with His creation in some general manner, i.e., only in a way that influences the entire creation? Do we believe that we could even understand any answer that would be given? Remember, Job knew no more about God's participation in his suffering at the end than he knew at the beginning. What do you mean by faith? Is faith a commitment to a class of propositions about God, or is it a behavior or attitude towards God? Is our faith and trust of God consequent upon certain evidence, or is it independent of any evidence? If it is founded upon evidence, what evidence, only some evidence or all evidence?

Science has influenced the kinds of answers we expect. The problem is accented by a possible tension between epistemology and faith. I believe there is a necessary tension. Asking why may not be a matter of faith, but of epistemology. How do we relate to God: epistemologically, by faith, or both?

I think I'll just end with those more or less general comments. But, it seems to me, that unless some of these questions are put on the table and somewhat clear, our response, especially the living response (i.e., it's my still born child) can not be clarified. Often it is just such events that cause us to question previous presumptions or clarify them. All is the work of the Holy Spirit.

bill powers
White, SD

On Tue, 17 Feb 2009 10:29:02 -0800, "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com> wrote:
> What about a baby that is naturally aborted a day after it is conceived
> (not born, but conceived)? Is that a beautiful person that God knitted
> together?
>
> It is easy to make a claim and then say that all exceptions are
> "mysteries."
>
> One can say that God makes everything beautiful, and if there's a problem,
> it is a "mystery." I think it is better to be realistic and say God is not
> responsible for biological garbage... and there is tons of it being made on
> a daily basis.
>
> I never said who or what is biological garbage. I never said Hellen
> Keller was garbage. We are all broken in different ways. No one is
> perfect on the outside or inside. But I don't see any beauty or value in
> so many natural abortions- women are not even aware of them because they
> happen so early. Then there are also lots of freaks of nature, such as
> two-headed people, those born without a brain, etc. How can anyone think
> that God knitted those together, literally? Sometimes these conjoined
> twins are separated, and one dies. God's will?
>
> Sometimes there is biological garbage. But I'm not saying what is or
> isn't garbage- it is not black and white (grey zone with black and white
> on the edges- just like most others things in life).
>
> I love all the kids in my family (direct and extended); and yes, some have
> special needs. I don't look at special needs kids as "junk." I agree with
> everything you wrote in your last paragraph. But at the same time, there
> is lots of biological junk being made, I think.
>
> I do stand against those who claim that God made us special and
> individually, such as Rick Warren in his 40 Days of Purpose book. How do
> you explain that to a parent who lost a child due to birth defects? I
> experienced that. I don't think it was my sin or the kid's sin that
> caused the problem, and I don't think God intended to make a baby that
> would die shortly after birth. And yes, me and my wife strove and prayed
> for a miracle, as we knew it was going to happen (sudden death after
> birth) because of the ultrasound check-ups.
>
> ...Bernie
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
> Behalf Of Christine Smith
> Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 9:59 AM
> To: asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: RE: [asa] baby-making (was: Two questions... (bottlenecking))
>
> Bernie,
>
> You wrote:
> "I think the obvious answer is that God does not literally "knit us
> together" in our mother's womb, because if He did, it meant He was making
> retarded and other such (junk) babies. Yes- junk, because some of it is
> not viable and dies in the womb or shortly thereafter."
>
> Quite frankly, I am horrified by this statement. The utility or biological
> functionality of a person has nothing to do with determining the value of a
> person. There are no babies that are "junk" - all are loved and valued by
> God, regardless of how short their life may be or how broken their bodies
> are. Indeed, in II Corinthians 12:9, Paul writes "And he said unto me, My
> grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.
> Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power
> of Christ may rest upon me." and in John 9:2-3, it's written "And his
> disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his
> parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man
> sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest
> in him."
>
> What may be "junk" to you may be a beautiful person through which God
> works. And who knows what they will accomplish, both in this life, and in
> the life to come in God's kingdom? Was Helen Keller a junk baby? How about
> those who compete in the Special Olympics? Are disabled children not the
> "least of these"? Disabled children are as much a gift to us as
> non-disabled children, perhaps even more so because they help us see what
> is really important in life; they give us a different perspective. They
> help us to see that the value of a person is NOT in their utility or their
> biological functionality, its in their very being--their being loved by
> God, which is root of all human worth.
>
> In Christ,
> Christine
>
>
>
> "For we walk by faith, not by sight" ~II Corinthians 5:7
>
> Help save the life of a homeless animal--visit www.azrescue.org to find
> out how.
>
> Recycling a single aluminum can conserves enough energy to power your TV
> for 3 hours--Reduce, Reuse, Recycle! Learn more at www.cleanup.org
>
>
> --- On Tue, 2/17/09, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com> wrote:
>
>> From: Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
>> Subject: RE: [asa] baby-making (was: Two questions... (bottlenecking))
>> To:
>> Cc: "ASA" <asa@calvin.edu>
>> Date: Tuesday, February 17, 2009, 11:22 AM
>> I think the obvious answer is that God does not literally
>> "knit us together" in our mother's womb,
>> because if He did, it meant He was making retarded and other
>> such (junk) babies. Yes- junk, because some of it is not
>> viable and dies in the womb or shortly thereafter.
>>
>>
>>
>> Instead, God invented the evolutionary process to create
>> physical beings- which is brilliant because there's no
>> better way of doing it (other than creation by fiat which
>> would create an unrealistic world, because no one would be
>> able to trust their senses if things were made by fiat).
>>
>>
>>
>> ...Bernie
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
>> [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Dick
>> Fischer
>> Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 9:27 PM
>> To: 'David Clounch'
>> Cc: ASA
>> Subject: RE: [asa] Two questions... (bottlenecking)
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi David:
>>
>>
>>
>> Certainly I don't have any good answers. I think God
>> cares more for hearts
>>
>> that are perfect toward Him than He seems to about physical
>> death and
>>
>> suffering which is simply part of life.
>>
>>
>>
>> Dick Fischer, GPA president
>>
>> Genesis Proclaimed Association
>>
>> "Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and History"
>>
>> www.genesisproclaimed.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> From: David Clounch [mailto:david.clounch@gmail.com]
>>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 12:13 PM
>>
>> To: Dick Fischer
>>
>> Cc: ASA
>>
>> Subject: Re: [asa] Two questions... (bottlenecking)
>>
>>
>>
>> Dick,
>>
>>
>>
>> Its a very good question. Does God allow us to be born
>> even though He
>>
>> knows something horrible will affect our lives and make us
>> miserable.
>>
>> Its the "problem of pain" all over again.
>>
>> Did God cause all this pain? If so, is He still good?
>> Seems to me
>>
>> this question is something we all have to deal with.
>>
>>
>>
>> If God allows pain is He good. If by allowing it He causes
>> it, is He
>>
>> still good? Terrible questions, aren't they?
>>
>>
>>
>> -Dave
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 5:34 PM, Dick Fischer
>> <dickfischer@verizon.net>
>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > I hope he didn't have Down's Syndrome.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Dick Fischer, GPA president
>>
>> > Genesis Proclaimed Association
>>
>> > "Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and
>> History"
>>
>> > www.genesisproclaimed.org
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>>
>> > From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
>> [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
>>
>> > Behalf Of David Clounch
>>
>> > Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 5:50 AM
>>
>> > To: asa@calvin.edu
>>
>> > Subject: Re: [asa] Two questions... (bottlenecking)
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Yesterday a friend was buried. On the card from his
>> service was Psalms
>>
>> > 139:13-16.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > verse 16 says,
>>
>> >
>>
>> > " Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;
>>
>> > And in Your book were all written
>>
>> > The days that were ordained for me,
>>
>> > When as yet there was not one of them. " NASV
>>
>> >
>>
>> > This Psalm raises an interesting idea. God knew all
>> the details and
>>
>> > design of the man's life long before he was born.
>> And ordained
>>
>> > (pre-planned) his days and fate.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Sounds like design to me.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > And I cant see where there is any way any series of
>> natural processes
>>
>> > can produce any such pre-planned creature or detailed
>> days of his
>>
>> > life. Not without massive tinkering and interference
>> with the flow of
>>
>> > natural processes.
>>
>> >
>
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Received on Tue Feb 17 17:47:10 2009