[asa] Liars for Darwin? WAS Fuz Rana...

Wow. I guess the gauntlet has been thrown down. This should make for some interesting discussion.

At least we agree on you being Liars for Jesus.

Thanks

John

--- On Sun, 2/1/09, James Patterson <james000777@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> From: James Patterson <james000777@bellsouth.net>
> Subject: RE: [asa] Taggle? (was: What Darwin Didn't Know - Dr. Fuz Rana)
> To: asa@calvin.edu
> Date: Sunday, February 1, 2009, 8:29 PM
> So what I hear is you John, stating that you (speaking for
> ASA?) do not want
> to debate this issue in a public forum (the Taggle Public
> Discussions area),
> despite your other, latter statements. Because that is what
> is being offered
> here. A realm to discuss this topic...the public forum of
> Taggle.
>
> What you do in the "private" part - is of course
> private. The same goes for
> RTB.
>
> And hopefully, to goad you into action: I offer you this.
> While I disagree
> with the label altogether, I would rather be a "Liar
> for Jesus" than a "Liar
> for Darwin". Because that's what you and your TE
> brethren are, based on my
> readings in "Perspectives on an Evolving
> Creation" - so far...Russell's work
> included.
>
> Warm, even toasty, regards, my brother in Christ! :)
>
> JP
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Walley [mailto:john_walley@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 7:00 PM
> To: 'ASA'; James Patterson
> Subject: RE: [asa] Taggle? (was: What Darwin Didn't
> Know - Dr. Fuz Rana)
>
> No thanks. RTB has made it clear that they are choosing
> ideology over Truth.
> They now officially have the same level of intellectual
> integrity as the
> YECs. If their "testable" creation model really
> could pass the test of
> scientific scrutiny, they wouldn't have to hide behind
> private forums and
> control and censor discussions. Anything goes in the
> church, just look at
> YEC, they have been pulling it off quite handsomely for
> years. But do you
> think that impresses Jesus?
>
> Tell Bob that if Fuz wants to have any credibility outside
> of his cult of
> RTB Apologist disciples, try bringing his model onto the
> ASA list and see
> how testable it is here. Or he could take us up on the
> offer to join Dick
> and Glenn in submitting a view in a Adam Debate book like
> they did with The
> Genesis Debate. I suggested that to Fuz several years ago
> and he said at the
> time he thought that was a great idea. I am sure both Dick
> and Glenn would
> still welcome the opportunity and then we could get to the
> bottom of these
> issues once and for all. I am sure Fuz has that as his
> desire for the sake
> of his followers right?
>
> Also please ask him how the function argument relates to
> the PSI gulo
> pseudogene when it is an example of a known loss of
> function and why he
> keeps saying that with no further explanation? Also when
> Bob settles the
> debate with Fuz being the expert, what about the other
> experts like Behe,
> Collins, Falk, Miller & McGrath that all disagree with
> Fuz? How can he be so
> sure that Fuz alone is right? RTB should be ashamed of
> themselves.
>
> Thanks
>
> John
>
>
>
> --- On Sun, 2/1/09, James Patterson
> <james000777@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> > From: James Patterson
> <james000777@bellsouth.net>
> > Subject: RE: [asa] Taggle? (was: What Darwin
> Didn't Know - Dr. Fuz Rana)
> > To: "'ASA'" <asa@calvin.edu>
> > Date: Sunday, February 1, 2009, 5:51 PM
> > RTB's private Taggle forum is still present, and
> was
> > never yanked - not sure
> > where that information came from.
> >
> > The topic of CD will of course continue to get plenty
> of
> > discussion-time,
> > but has been tabled for the moment within RTB. Bob
> Stuart
> > asked for a
> > tabling of the discussion on this topic until a formal
> > conference can be
> > held addressing this. This conference was scheduled,
> but
> > then had to be
> > rescheduled due to a conflict with someone's
> schedule.
> > Fuz is going to be
> > leading the discussion - and I did forward him the
> concerns
> > raised here.
> >
> > John - if you were still part of RTB, you would have
> gotten
> > an invitation to
> > join the RTB Taggle forum. I don't think you are,
> and
> > so I don't think you
> > can. However, you may still be able to eventually join
> the
> > public forum as
> > an individual, if ASA decides not to join as a group.
> I
> > think Dan McCarthy
> > is still working on this. He hasn't decided
> whether to
> > allow individuals to
> > join the public Taggle area.
> >
> > The beauty of Taggle is that it has a public forum
> where
> > anyone (any
> > Christian) can discuss things, while you can carry on
> > protected discussions
> > in the private area. The original intent was for
> groups
> > (churches or
> > organizations) to join, and then members of that
> church
> > could use the
> > private section for within-church business or
> discussions,
> > and the public
> > section for "cross-pollination". There's
> > places (both public and private)
> > for uploading all kinds of media, as well as hosting
> your
> > own blogs too.
> >
> > I'm sure he would enjoy hearing your thoughts
> and/or
> > ideas on this. It is a
> > work in progress. I think he can be reached at
> > admin@taggleinc.com.
> >
> > JP
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
> > [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
> > Behalf Of John Walley
> > Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 6:10 PM
> > To: 'ASA'; James Patterson
> > Subject: Re: [asa] Taggle? (was: What Darwin
> Didn't
> > Know - Dr. Fuz Rana)
> >
> > Too late. RTB just yanked their Taggle forum and also
> put
> > the kibosh on any
> > discussion of TE or CD on their forum. It has been
> getting
> > a little to close
> > for comfort for them and they can't let that genie
> get
> > out of the bottle.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> > --- On Fri, 1/30/09, James Patterson
> > <james000777@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> >
> > > From: James Patterson
> > <james000777@bellsouth.net>
> > > Subject: [asa] Taggle? (was: What Darwin
> Didn't
> > Know - Dr. Fuz Rana)
> > > To: "'ASA'"
> <asa@calvin.edu>
> > > Date: Friday, January 30, 2009, 7:08 AM
> > > James Patterson here. RTB member. Yes, I'm
> still
> > here!
> > >
> > > I see the same problem here that I see in
> RTB's
> > > listserve...a group of
> > > like-minded people discussing things. You
> won't
> > get any
> > > replies or
> > > discussion from the RTB camp since I am the only
> > active
> > > member here, and all
> > > I can say is that you'd have to ask Fuz.
> However,
> > I
> > > think most of the
> > > references, and answers are in "Who Was
> > Adam?".
> > > But that's not the point of
> > > this reply.
> > >
> > > If you would actually like to discuss issues like
> this
> > (as
> > > well as anything
> > > else), with other groups (not just RTB) I suggest
> that
> > you
> > > consider Taggle.
> > > I believe Randy's gotten an invitation from
> Daniel
> > > McCarthy. It is a place
> > > where you can discuss topics in forums, share
> ideas,
> > share
> > > documents,
> > > videos, photos, audio files, write blogs, etc.
> You can
> > do
> > > all of this in the
> > > public forum, open to all churches and
> organizations,
> > and
> > > you can do this in
> > > your own private area, dedicated and open only to
> ASA.
> >
> > >
> > > The forum in the private section would serve much
> like
> > the
> > > ASA listserve
> > > does now, and the forum in the public section
> would
> > serve
> > > as a place for
> > > "cross-pollination".
> > >
> > > Currently, it's just getting started, and so
> > > there's only two churches, and
> > > RTB. I think it has great potential to serve as a
> > meeting
> > > place for
> > > Christians with a desire to learn more, not just
> about
> > > their own beliefs,
> > > but about the beliefs of others. In that same
> vein, it
> > is a
> > > great place to
> > > share what you believe, test your beliefs against
> > others in
> > > a common forum,
> > > and search for the truth. Make that...Truth.
> > >
> > > The link: http://taggleinc.com
> > >
> > > God bless, JP
> > >
> > > PS: Still reading "Perspectives on an
> Evolving
> > > Creation" Excellent book,
> > > well written and edited, and I have tons of
> margin
> > notes to
> > > discuss, once I
> > > finish. I've been distracted several times by
> > other
> > > projects. Currently
> > > reading Bob Russell's chapter - very
> intriguing.
> > :)
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
> > > [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
> > > Behalf Of Murray Hogg
> > > Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 5:21 PM
> > > To: ASA
> > > Subject: Re: [asa] Fw: What Darwin Didn't
> Know
> > article
> > > by Dr. Fuz Rana
> > >
> > > Oh, I quite agree - if it WAS a mistake (as I
> suggest
> > it
> > > was) to use
> > > "mitochondrial Eve" as a descriptive
> due to
> > its
> > > potential for confusion then
> > > somebody like Rana - who KNOWS the science and
> KNOWS
> > the
> > > biblical story - is
> > > doubly culpable for propagating rather than
> rectifying
> > the
> > > confusion.
> > >
> > > I was thinking, rather, in terms of broad public
> > perception
> > > and that the
> > > reason such comments have an audience is because
> > somebody
> > > adopted a label
> > > which is just a bit too evocative!
> > >
> > > It might, additionally, simply reinforce my
> remarks
> > about
> > > conservative
> > > Christians not having categories for certain
> types of
> > > statement - after all,
> > > those who have some appreciation of non-literal
> > statements
> > > would hardly fall
> > > into the trap of assuming that
> "mitochondrial
> > > Eve" means "the first truly
> > > human woman from whom we are all directly
> > descended".
> > >
> > > Have you noticed that, when it comes to the
> origins
> > debate,
> > > scientists can't
> > > win....
> > >
> > > Blessings,
> > > Murray
> > >
> > > David Opderbeck wrote:
> > > > True, except that Rana is a microbiologist,
> has
> > read
> > > the relevant
> > > > literature, and knows better.
> > > >
> > > > David W. Opderbeck
> > > > Associate Professor of Law
> > > > Seton Hall University Law School
> > > > Gibbons Institute of Law, Science &
> > Technology
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 5:42 PM, Murray Hogg
> > > <muzhogg@netspace.net.au
> > > > <mailto:muzhogg@netspace.net.au>>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi David,
> > > >
> > > > I was reflecting about this overnight
> and it
> > > struck me that
> > > > scientists probably only have
> themeselves to
> > blame
> > > when they choose
> > > > to engage in fanciful comments about
> > > "mitochondrial Eve".
> > > > Personally, I'd have thought the
> > potential for
> > > misunderstanding and
> > > > misrepresentation would be obvious.
> > > >
> > > > It's probably one for filing under
> > "What
> > > on earth were they thinking!"
> > > >
> > > > Blessings,
> > > > Murray.
> > > >
> > > > David Opderbeck wrote:
> > > >
> > > > It's truly disappointing and
> > frustrating
> > > that Rana continues to
> > > > popularize the notion that
> mitochondrial
> > DNA
> > > studies "attest[]
> > > > to" what Rana would offer as
> the
> > Biblical
> > > notion of Adam and
> > > > Eve. He knows better. He knows
> that
> > mDNA
> > > studies don't
> > > > establish a single Adam or Eve who
> were
> > > contemporary with each
> > > > other, he knows that both
> mitchondrial
> > Eve
> > > certainly lived among
> > > > a population of many other breeding
> > pairs, and
> > > he knows of
> > > > Ayala's "Myth of
> Mitochondrial
> > > Eve" paper and other similar
> > > > population genetics studies. Any
> popular
> > > article or talk that
> > > > makes such claims and doesn't
> address
> > the
> > > foregoing is simply
> > > > misleading.
> > > > David W. Opderbeck
> > > > Associate Professor of Law
> > > > Seton Hall University Law School
> > > > Gibbons Institute of Law, Science
> &
> > > Technology
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 5:13 PM, D.
> F.
> > > Siemens, Jr.
> > > > <dfsiemensjr@juno.com
> > > <mailto:dfsiemensjr@juno.com>
> > > > <mailto:dfsiemensjr@juno.com
> > > <mailto:dfsiemensjr@juno.com>>>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 18:07:01
> -0800
> > (PST)
> > > John Walley
> > > > <john_walley@yahoo.com
> > > <mailto:john_walley@yahoo.com>
> > > > <mailto:john_walley@yahoo.com
> > > <mailto:john_walley@yahoo.com>>>
> > > > writes:
> > > > >
> > > > > FYI..
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dr. Fuz Rana has a
> very
> > good
> > > article in the latest
> > > Charisma
> > > > > > magazine entitled What
> > Darwin
> > > Didn't
> > > > > > Know. Here is the
> link to
> > it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > http://charismamag.com/issues/index.php/cm209
> > > > > >
> > > > There are two matters that I
> > didn't
> > > note having comments. The
> > > > first:
> > > > "But some of the most recent
> > advances
> > > related to hominid-human
> > > > relationships raise questions
> about
> > > evolution's validity. In
> > > 1997
> > > > fragments of Neanderthal
> mitochondrial
> > DNA
> > > from a 40,000- to
> > > > 100,000-year-old skeleton were
> found
> > in
> > > West Germany. When
> > > > scientists
> > > > compared them with the
> corresponding
> > > fragment of human DNA, the
> > > > researchers discovered that
> > Neanderthals
> > > made no contribution
> > > > to human
> > > > genetics."
> > > >
> > > > What does a lack of contribution
> from
> > > contemporaries have to
> > > > do with
> > > > evolution? The claim is that Homo
> > sapiens,
> > > H.
> > > > neanderthalensis and
> > > > now H.
> > > > floresiensis (?) all share
> ancestry,
> > not
> > > that one is the
> > > > ancestor of the
> > > > others. Since H.s. and H.n. had
> > overlapping
> > > ranges, I suggest
> > > > that some
> > > > modern Europeans could still have
> > > Neanderthal inheritance.
> > > > Mitochondrial
> > > > DNA is inherited only though the
> > mother.
> > > So, if a H.s. male
> > > > fathered a
> > > > son with a H.n. female, and the
> son
> > > fathered offspring with a
> > > > H.s.
> > > > female, there would be no
> evidence in
> > the
> > > mitochondria of the
> > > > H.n.
> > > > genetics, though the chromosomal
> > > inheritence might be retained.
> > > >
> > > > The second:
> > > > "Scientific consensus
> confirms
> > that
> > > humanity originated about
> > > > 100,000
> > > > years ago in east Africa near the
> > location
> > > ascribed to the
> > > > Garden of
> > > > Eden."
> > > >
> > > > I'll not use the vulgar but
> > appropriate
> > > term to describe the
> > > > claim that
> > > > East Africa is the Near East.
> > > > Dave (ASA)
> > > >
> > >
> >
> ____________________________________________________________
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Received on Sun Feb 1 20:52:16 2009