RE: [asa] Taggle? (was: What Darwin Didn't Know - Dr. Fuz Rana)

So what I hear is you John, stating that you (speaking for ASA?) do not want
to debate this issue in a public forum (the Taggle Public Discussions area),
despite your other, latter statements. Because that is what is being offered
here. A realm to discuss this topic...the public forum of Taggle.

What you do in the "private" part - is of course private. The same goes for
RTB.

And hopefully, to goad you into action: I offer you this. While I disagree
with the label altogether, I would rather be a "Liar for Jesus" than a "Liar
for Darwin". Because that's what you and your TE brethren are, based on my
readings in "Perspectives on an Evolving Creation" - so far...Russell's work
included.

Warm, even toasty, regards, my brother in Christ! :)

JP
-----Original Message-----
From: John Walley [mailto:john_walley@yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 7:00 PM
To: 'ASA'; James Patterson
Subject: RE: [asa] Taggle? (was: What Darwin Didn't Know - Dr. Fuz Rana)

No thanks. RTB has made it clear that they are choosing ideology over Truth.
They now officially have the same level of intellectual integrity as the
YECs. If their "testable" creation model really could pass the test of
scientific scrutiny, they wouldn't have to hide behind private forums and
control and censor discussions. Anything goes in the church, just look at
YEC, they have been pulling it off quite handsomely for years. But do you
think that impresses Jesus?

Tell Bob that if Fuz wants to have any credibility outside of his cult of
RTB Apologist disciples, try bringing his model onto the ASA list and see
how testable it is here. Or he could take us up on the offer to join Dick
and Glenn in submitting a view in a Adam Debate book like they did with The
Genesis Debate. I suggested that to Fuz several years ago and he said at the
time he thought that was a great idea. I am sure both Dick and Glenn would
still welcome the opportunity and then we could get to the bottom of these
issues once and for all. I am sure Fuz has that as his desire for the sake
of his followers right?

Also please ask him how the function argument relates to the PSI gulo
pseudogene when it is an example of a known loss of function and why he
keeps saying that with no further explanation? Also when Bob settles the
debate with Fuz being the expert, what about the other experts like Behe,
Collins, Falk, Miller & McGrath that all disagree with Fuz? How can he be so
sure that Fuz alone is right? RTB should be ashamed of themselves.

Thanks

John

--- On Sun, 2/1/09, James Patterson <james000777@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> From: James Patterson <james000777@bellsouth.net>
> Subject: RE: [asa] Taggle? (was: What Darwin Didn't Know - Dr. Fuz Rana)
> To: "'ASA'" <asa@calvin.edu>
> Date: Sunday, February 1, 2009, 5:51 PM
> RTB's private Taggle forum is still present, and was
> never yanked - not sure
> where that information came from.
>
> The topic of CD will of course continue to get plenty of
> discussion-time,
> but has been tabled for the moment within RTB. Bob Stuart
> asked for a
> tabling of the discussion on this topic until a formal
> conference can be
> held addressing this. This conference was scheduled, but
> then had to be
> rescheduled due to a conflict with someone's schedule.
> Fuz is going to be
> leading the discussion - and I did forward him the concerns
> raised here.
>
> John - if you were still part of RTB, you would have gotten
> an invitation to
> join the RTB Taggle forum. I don't think you are, and
> so I don't think you
> can. However, you may still be able to eventually join the
> public forum as
> an individual, if ASA decides not to join as a group. I
> think Dan McCarthy
> is still working on this. He hasn't decided whether to
> allow individuals to
> join the public Taggle area.
>
> The beauty of Taggle is that it has a public forum where
> anyone (any
> Christian) can discuss things, while you can carry on
> protected discussions
> in the private area. The original intent was for groups
> (churches or
> organizations) to join, and then members of that church
> could use the
> private section for within-church business or discussions,
> and the public
> section for "cross-pollination". There's
> places (both public and private)
> for uploading all kinds of media, as well as hosting your
> own blogs too.
>
> I'm sure he would enjoy hearing your thoughts and/or
> ideas on this. It is a
> work in progress. I think he can be reached at
> admin@taggleinc.com.
>
> JP
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
> [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
> Behalf Of John Walley
> Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 6:10 PM
> To: 'ASA'; James Patterson
> Subject: Re: [asa] Taggle? (was: What Darwin Didn't
> Know - Dr. Fuz Rana)
>
> Too late. RTB just yanked their Taggle forum and also put
> the kibosh on any
> discussion of TE or CD on their forum. It has been getting
> a little to close
> for comfort for them and they can't let that genie get
> out of the bottle.
>
> Thanks
>
> John
>
>
> --- On Fri, 1/30/09, James Patterson
> <james000777@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> > From: James Patterson
> <james000777@bellsouth.net>
> > Subject: [asa] Taggle? (was: What Darwin Didn't
> Know - Dr. Fuz Rana)
> > To: "'ASA'" <asa@calvin.edu>
> > Date: Friday, January 30, 2009, 7:08 AM
> > James Patterson here. RTB member. Yes, I'm still
> here!
> >
> > I see the same problem here that I see in RTB's
> > listserve...a group of
> > like-minded people discussing things. You won't
> get any
> > replies or
> > discussion from the RTB camp since I am the only
> active
> > member here, and all
> > I can say is that you'd have to ask Fuz. However,
> I
> > think most of the
> > references, and answers are in "Who Was
> Adam?".
> > But that's not the point of
> > this reply.
> >
> > If you would actually like to discuss issues like this
> (as
> > well as anything
> > else), with other groups (not just RTB) I suggest that
> you
> > consider Taggle.
> > I believe Randy's gotten an invitation from Daniel
> > McCarthy. It is a place
> > where you can discuss topics in forums, share ideas,
> share
> > documents,
> > videos, photos, audio files, write blogs, etc. You can
> do
> > all of this in the
> > public forum, open to all churches and organizations,
> and
> > you can do this in
> > your own private area, dedicated and open only to ASA.
>
> >
> > The forum in the private section would serve much like
> the
> > ASA listserve
> > does now, and the forum in the public section would
> serve
> > as a place for
> > "cross-pollination".
> >
> > Currently, it's just getting started, and so
> > there's only two churches, and
> > RTB. I think it has great potential to serve as a
> meeting
> > place for
> > Christians with a desire to learn more, not just about
> > their own beliefs,
> > but about the beliefs of others. In that same vein, it
> is a
> > great place to
> > share what you believe, test your beliefs against
> others in
> > a common forum,
> > and search for the truth. Make that...Truth.
> >
> > The link: http://taggleinc.com
> >
> > God bless, JP
> >
> > PS: Still reading "Perspectives on an Evolving
> > Creation" Excellent book,
> > well written and edited, and I have tons of margin
> notes to
> > discuss, once I
> > finish. I've been distracted several times by
> other
> > projects. Currently
> > reading Bob Russell's chapter - very intriguing.
> :)
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
> > [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
> > Behalf Of Murray Hogg
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 5:21 PM
> > To: ASA
> > Subject: Re: [asa] Fw: What Darwin Didn't Know
> article
> > by Dr. Fuz Rana
> >
> > Oh, I quite agree - if it WAS a mistake (as I suggest
> it
> > was) to use
> > "mitochondrial Eve" as a descriptive due to
> its
> > potential for confusion then
> > somebody like Rana - who KNOWS the science and KNOWS
> the
> > biblical story - is
> > doubly culpable for propagating rather than rectifying
> the
> > confusion.
> >
> > I was thinking, rather, in terms of broad public
> perception
> > and that the
> > reason such comments have an audience is because
> somebody
> > adopted a label
> > which is just a bit too evocative!
> >
> > It might, additionally, simply reinforce my remarks
> about
> > conservative
> > Christians not having categories for certain types of
> > statement - after all,
> > those who have some appreciation of non-literal
> statements
> > would hardly fall
> > into the trap of assuming that "mitochondrial
> > Eve" means "the first truly
> > human woman from whom we are all directly
> descended".
> >
> > Have you noticed that, when it comes to the origins
> debate,
> > scientists can't
> > win....
> >
> > Blessings,
> > Murray
> >
> > David Opderbeck wrote:
> > > True, except that Rana is a microbiologist, has
> read
> > the relevant
> > > literature, and knows better.
> > >
> > > David W. Opderbeck
> > > Associate Professor of Law
> > > Seton Hall University Law School
> > > Gibbons Institute of Law, Science &
> Technology
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 5:42 PM, Murray Hogg
> > <muzhogg@netspace.net.au
> > > <mailto:muzhogg@netspace.net.au>> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi David,
> > >
> > > I was reflecting about this overnight and it
> > struck me that
> > > scientists probably only have themeselves to
> blame
> > when they choose
> > > to engage in fanciful comments about
> > "mitochondrial Eve".
> > > Personally, I'd have thought the
> potential for
> > misunderstanding and
> > > misrepresentation would be obvious.
> > >
> > > It's probably one for filing under
> "What
> > on earth were they thinking!"
> > >
> > > Blessings,
> > > Murray.
> > >
> > > David Opderbeck wrote:
> > >
> > > It's truly disappointing and
> frustrating
> > that Rana continues to
> > > popularize the notion that mitochondrial
> DNA
> > studies "attest[]
> > > to" what Rana would offer as the
> Biblical
> > notion of Adam and
> > > Eve. He knows better. He knows that
> mDNA
> > studies don't
> > > establish a single Adam or Eve who were
> > contemporary with each
> > > other, he knows that both mitchondrial
> Eve
> > certainly lived among
> > > a population of many other breeding
> pairs, and
> > he knows of
> > > Ayala's "Myth of Mitochondrial
> > Eve" paper and other similar
> > > population genetics studies. Any popular
> > article or talk that
> > > makes such claims and doesn't address
> the
> > foregoing is simply
> > > misleading.
> > > David W. Opderbeck
> > > Associate Professor of Law
> > > Seton Hall University Law School
> > > Gibbons Institute of Law, Science &
> > Technology
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 5:13 PM, D. F.
> > Siemens, Jr.
> > > <dfsiemensjr@juno.com
> > <mailto:dfsiemensjr@juno.com>
> > > <mailto:dfsiemensjr@juno.com
> > <mailto:dfsiemensjr@juno.com>>>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 18:07:01 -0800
> (PST)
> > John Walley
> > > <john_walley@yahoo.com
> > <mailto:john_walley@yahoo.com>
> > > <mailto:john_walley@yahoo.com
> > <mailto:john_walley@yahoo.com>>>
> > > writes:
> > > >
> > > > FYI..
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Dr. Fuz Rana has a very
> good
> > article in the latest
> > Charisma
> > > > > magazine entitled What
> Darwin
> > Didn't
> > > > > Know. Here is the link to
> it.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > http://charismamag.com/issues/index.php/cm209
> > > > >
> > > There are two matters that I
> didn't
> > note having comments. The
> > > first:
> > > "But some of the most recent
> advances
> > related to hominid-human
> > > relationships raise questions about
> > evolution's validity. In
> > 1997
> > > fragments of Neanderthal mitochondrial
> DNA
> > from a 40,000- to
> > > 100,000-year-old skeleton were found
> in
> > West Germany. When
> > > scientists
> > > compared them with the corresponding
> > fragment of human DNA, the
> > > researchers discovered that
> Neanderthals
> > made no contribution
> > > to human
> > > genetics."
> > >
> > > What does a lack of contribution from
> > contemporaries have to
> > > do with
> > > evolution? The claim is that Homo
> sapiens,
> > H.
> > > neanderthalensis and
> > > now H.
> > > floresiensis (?) all share ancestry,
> not
> > that one is the
> > > ancestor of the
> > > others. Since H.s. and H.n. had
> overlapping
> > ranges, I suggest
> > > that some
> > > modern Europeans could still have
> > Neanderthal inheritance.
> > > Mitochondrial
> > > DNA is inherited only though the
> mother.
> > So, if a H.s. male
> > > fathered a
> > > son with a H.n. female, and the son
> > fathered offspring with a
> > > H.s.
> > > female, there would be no evidence in
> the
> > mitochondria of the
> > > H.n.
> > > genetics, though the chromosomal
> > inheritence might be retained.
> > >
> > > The second:
> > > "Scientific consensus confirms
> that
> > humanity originated about
> > > 100,000
> > > years ago in east Africa near the
> location
> > ascribed to the
> > > Garden of
> > > Eden."
> > >
> > > I'll not use the vulgar but
> appropriate
> > term to describe the
> > > claim that
> > > East Africa is the Near East.
> > > Dave (ASA)
> > >
> >
> ____________________________________________________________
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Received on Sun Feb 1 20:29:45 2009