Re: [asa] Yet again i seek help (Iain s???)

Iain

Interesting questions.

On blood-clotting this is Behe's example. My biochemistry is useless , but
both Ken Miller and Dr Doolittle respond to this, but I cannot understand
the arguments.

As for rabbits , the arctic and Florida rabbits are a common example
exhibiting slight divergence yet both can mate with Michigan rabbits (from
Calvin Coll:)). There are other examples. You can see the same with
selective breeding with dogs . A toy dog cant mate with a Great Dane!! These
examples show how difficult it is to define species.

Also we are focussing on details on evolution not the basics and here I
always go back to ancient earth with the fossil succession. Until that is
accepted we are nit-picking on blood-clotting. Of course this immediately
means that trilobites were attacking each other 500 million years ago. (See
Bible Rocks and Time by Steary and Young [rabbits from Michigan!], published
by IVP)

Further we need to stress that creation does not mean it must be 6/24 from
the nature of Genesis or the rest of the Bible.

Michael

----- Original Message -----
From: "IW" <iaincw@hushmail.com>
To: "ASA" <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 9:16 AM
Subject: [asa] Yet again i seek help (Iain s???)

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> On another forum where one member said, "How do we christians reach
> evolutionists" and I replied that that assumed that being an
> evolutionist meant you were not a Christian....and then I explained
> why I believe in evolution.....this was a tiresome reply. I have
> answered much already but would love the more educated and
> scientific (especially you Iain - I have always loved the way you
> think and express things...you are one of the few on this list who
> I actually understand [sometimes!] Probably because we have such a
> good name. ;)) to help with an input/reply.
>
> I get very frustrated with this sort of thing because I know in an
> intuitive way why I believe but I lack the scientific background to
> reply in said manner.
>
>
> reply I am dealing with:
>
> - ----
> Don't mean to rain on your parade, but can you do something for me
> that evolutionists have so far been unable to do -- tell me how
> blood clotting came about through macro-evolution. Micro-evolution
> has never, and this is agreed to be all, led to a new kind of
> animal. That is, no one has ever seen a cat turn into another kind
> of animal that is new to this planet.
>
> Also, mutations do not lead to good results. I've heard all the
> arguments about things like sickle cell anemia being an example of
> a beneficial mutation because malaria carrying skeeters won't bite
> those with the sickle cell. Not sure how that is a benefit to the
> sick person since they are going to die from the sickle cell.
>
> So, here in more detail is what I'm asking for:
>
> 1. How did the first clotting start given random chance? BTW, God
> never once uses or talks about using chance on His part.
>
> 2. How, again given random chance, did the ability to stop the
> clotting before all the blood clotted come into existence?
>
> But, here is my major issue with evolution: My God, the God that I
> find in the pages of the Bible does not need to use pain, suffering
> and death to create the universe, this planet, and all life on it.
> To say that He used evolution, meaning macro-evolution where one
> kind turns into another kind, means that God HAD TO USE those three
> - -- pain, suffering, and death. My God spoke things into existence.
> Now, trying to understand this is like an ameoba trying to
> understand a 100-story building -- can't be done. We can only know
> that God is "other." That is, He is not human, He is not bound by
> this world or the universe in which we find ourselves, He is
> outside of time and space, which He created, and He tried hard to
> communicate with us through many sources (Oral record, written
> record, the prophets, Jesus (His Son), the apostles, and thousands
> upon thousands of disciples).
>
> The thing is that when debating this issue we often mean different
> things by "evolution." There is micro-evolution where there is
> variation within species -- that is, among dogs there is a great
> variety of dogs, but all of them have the genes with which we could
> make the other types of dogs (the exception I believe is going from
> a Chihuahua to a Great Dane). Or, among chickens there is a huge
> variety -- some are just for show, some are for meat, and some are
> for eggs. Breeding has given us specialized varieties that give us
> certain characteristics we want.
>
> Evolutionists used to say that the Arctic rabbit and the Florida
> rabbit are clear examples of macro-evolution because they cannot
> interbreed. First, both are rabbits. The Arctic rabbit did not
> become some new kind of animal -- it is still of the rabbit kind.
> The same is true for the Florida rabbit. However, the Arctic rabbit
> and Florida rabbit can mate with the Michigan rabbit. And the
> offspring of those matings will breed with either of the two --
> Arctic or Florida. In other words, the Arctic rabbit breeds with
> the Michigan rabbit and the offspring can breed with the Florida
> rabbits. The same is true for of the Florida rabbit breeding with
> the Michigan rabbit. Its offspring will breed with the Arctic
> rabbit.
>
> So, variation within species, or speciation, no Creationist will
> ever argue against that, not if they know anything about this
> topic. Where we disagree is on macro-evolution. There is not one
> iota of evidence to support this position. This is the BIG, BIG
> secret within the circles of evolutionists today. This is why so
> many evolutionists are turning from Darwinian and neo-Darwinian
> theories in search of a theory that works. Also, they are going to
> have to figure out how to overcome the laws of physics, but that is
> another story.
>
> - -----
>
> Iain
>
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Received on Wed Nov 19 04:48:48 2008