Re: [asa] Yet again i seek help (Iain s???)

My advice here is going to possibly be non-standard: Respectfully put the
debate to the side. Tell him that you disagree with him on the science, but
that it's not the primary concern for either of you. If someone is
completely wedded to the concept of evolution, they still aren't in
possession of knowledge that invalidates or even threatens Christianity,
regardless to whether they're correct on the science. Making them understand
that is paramount - it removes a roadblock to their understanding and
engaging Christianity, and if they're truly wrong, they'll be able to
approach the question with a clearer head (rather than by using evolution to
'ward off' Christianity and not take it seriously.)

So sayeth I, at least. The goal shouldn't be to come out ahead in a science
debate, but to understand why the debate does not need to happen. Not in
that context, not on those terms.

On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 4:16 AM, IW <iaincw@hushmail.com> wrote:

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> On another forum where one member said, "How do we christians reach
> evolutionists" and I replied that that assumed that being an
> evolutionist meant you were not a Christian....and then I explained
> why I believe in evolution.....this was a tiresome reply. I have
> answered much already but would love the more educated and
> scientific (especially you Iain - I have always loved the way you
> think and express things...you are one of the few on this list who
> I actually understand [sometimes!] Probably because we have such a
> good name. ;)) to help with an input/reply.
>
> I get very frustrated with this sort of thing because I know in an
> intuitive way why I believe but I lack the scientific background to
> reply in said manner.
>
>
> reply I am dealing with:
>
> - ----
> Don't mean to rain on your parade, but can you do something for me
> that evolutionists have so far been unable to do -- tell me how
> blood clotting came about through macro-evolution. Micro-evolution
> has never, and this is agreed to be all, led to a new kind of
> animal. That is, no one has ever seen a cat turn into another kind
> of animal that is new to this planet.
>
> Also, mutations do not lead to good results. I've heard all the
> arguments about things like sickle cell anemia being an example of
> a beneficial mutation because malaria carrying skeeters won't bite
> those with the sickle cell. Not sure how that is a benefit to the
> sick person since they are going to die from the sickle cell.
>
> So, here in more detail is what I'm asking for:
>
> 1. How did the first clotting start given random chance? BTW, God
> never once uses or talks about using chance on His part.
>
> 2. How, again given random chance, did the ability to stop the
> clotting before all the blood clotted come into existence?
>
> But, here is my major issue with evolution: My God, the God that I
> find in the pages of the Bible does not need to use pain, suffering
> and death to create the universe, this planet, and all life on it.
> To say that He used evolution, meaning macro-evolution where one
> kind turns into another kind, means that God HAD TO USE those three
> - -- pain, suffering, and death. My God spoke things into existence.
> Now, trying to understand this is like an ameoba trying to
> understand a 100-story building -- can't be done. We can only know
> that God is "other." That is, He is not human, He is not bound by
> this world or the universe in which we find ourselves, He is
> outside of time and space, which He created, and He tried hard to
> communicate with us through many sources (Oral record, written
> record, the prophets, Jesus (His Son), the apostles, and thousands
> upon thousands of disciples).
>
> The thing is that when debating this issue we often mean different
> things by "evolution." There is micro-evolution where there is
> variation within species -- that is, among dogs there is a great
> variety of dogs, but all of them have the genes with which we could
> make the other types of dogs (the exception I believe is going from
> a Chihuahua to a Great Dane). Or, among chickens there is a huge
> variety -- some are just for show, some are for meat, and some are
> for eggs. Breeding has given us specialized varieties that give us
> certain characteristics we want.
>
> Evolutionists used to say that the Arctic rabbit and the Florida
> rabbit are clear examples of macro-evolution because they cannot
> interbreed. First, both are rabbits. The Arctic rabbit did not
> become some new kind of animal -- it is still of the rabbit kind.
> The same is true for the Florida rabbit. However, the Arctic rabbit
> and Florida rabbit can mate with the Michigan rabbit. And the
> offspring of those matings will breed with either of the two --
> Arctic or Florida. In other words, the Arctic rabbit breeds with
> the Michigan rabbit and the offspring can breed with the Florida
> rabbits. The same is true for of the Florida rabbit breeding with
> the Michigan rabbit. Its offspring will breed with the Arctic
> rabbit.
>
> So, variation within species, or speciation, no Creationist will
> ever argue against that, not if they know anything about this
> topic. Where we disagree is on macro-evolution. There is not one
> iota of evidence to support this position. This is the BIG, BIG
> secret within the circles of evolutionists today. This is why so
> many evolutionists are turning from Darwinian and neo-Darwinian
> theories in search of a theory that works. Also, they are going to
> have to figure out how to overcome the laws of physics, but that is
> another story.
>
> - -----
>
> Iain
>
> =====================================
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> iain@secure.holuwon.com (PGP key id: 0x722EE765)
> iwilson@clintonfoundation.org
>
>
> This email is confidential and may also be privileged. If you are
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Received on Wed Nov 19 04:30:48 2008