RE: [asa] Yet again i seek help (Iain s???)

Hi Iain:
 
Whereas offense is defense, defense rarely is offense. If you simply
allow them to fire questions at you, anytime you can't come up with an
acceptable answer, they win. Just from the standpoint of argumentation
you need to turn the tables and put your aggressor in a defensive
position.
 
The blood clotting mechanism is just as good a place as any to start.
Let's allow for the sake of discussion that an Intelligent Designer
thought it up and placed it into living organisms just so. Fine. Now
what do we tell the hemophiliac who lacks a blood clotting capability.
Well, I guess the Intelligent Designer figured you didn't need it. Or
better yet, it must be the product of sin! What have you been up to you
aren't telling us about? What sinful activities were your ancestors up
to? And so on.
 
IDers want to invoke ID for the positive benefits and sweep under the
rug any downsides. Pull up the rug and examine the dirt.
 
Dick Fischer, GPA president
Genesis Proclaimed Association
"Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and History"
www.genesisproclaimed.org <http://www.genesisproclaimed.org/>
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of IW
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 4:17 AM
To: ASA
Subject: [asa] Yet again i seek help (Iain s???)
 
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On another forum where one member said, "How do we christians reach
evolutionists" and I replied that that assumed that being an
evolutionist meant you were not a Christian....and then I explained
why I believe in evolution.....this was a tiresome reply. I have
answered much already but would love the more educated and
scientific (especially you Iain - I have always loved the way you
think and express things...you are one of the few on this list who
I actually understand [sometimes!] Probably because we have such a
good name. ;)) to help with an input/reply.
 
I get very frustrated with this sort of thing because I know in an
intuitive way why I believe but I lack the scientific background to
reply in said manner.
 
 
reply I am dealing with:
 
- ----
Don't mean to rain on your parade, but can you do something for me
that evolutionists have so far been unable to do -- tell me how
blood clotting came about through macro-evolution. Micro-evolution
has never, and this is agreed to be all, led to a new kind of
animal. That is, no one has ever seen a cat turn into another kind
of animal that is new to this planet.
 
Also, mutations do not lead to good results. I've heard all the
arguments about things like sickle cell anemia being an example of
a beneficial mutation because malaria carrying skeeters won't bite
those with the sickle cell. Not sure how that is a benefit to the
sick person since they are going to die from the sickle cell.
 
So, here in more detail is what I'm asking for:
 
1. How did the first clotting start given random chance? BTW, God
never once uses or talks about using chance on His part.
 
2. How, again given random chance, did the ability to stop the
clotting before all the blood clotted come into existence?
 
But, here is my major issue with evolution: My God, the God that I
find in the pages of the Bible does not need to use pain, suffering
and death to create the universe, this planet, and all life on it.
To say that He used evolution, meaning macro-evolution where one
kind turns into another kind, means that God HAD TO USE those three
- -- pain, suffering, and death. My God spoke things into existence.
Now, trying to understand this is like an ameoba trying to
understand a 100-story building -- can't be done. We can only know
that God is "other." That is, He is not human, He is not bound by
this world or the universe in which we find ourselves, He is
outside of time and space, which He created, and He tried hard to
communicate with us through many sources (Oral record, written
record, the prophets, Jesus (His Son), the apostles, and thousands
upon thousands of disciples).
 
The thing is that when debating this issue we often mean different
things by "evolution." There is micro-evolution where there is
variation within species -- that is, among dogs there is a great
variety of dogs, but all of them have the genes with which we could
make the other types of dogs (the exception I believe is going from
a Chihuahua to a Great Dane). Or, among chickens there is a huge
variety -- some are just for show, some are for meat, and some are
for eggs. Breeding has given us specialized varieties that give us
certain characteristics we want.
 
Evolutionists used to say that the Arctic rabbit and the Florida
rabbit are clear examples of macro-evolution because they cannot
interbreed. First, both are rabbits. The Arctic rabbit did not
become some new kind of animal -- it is still of the rabbit kind.
The same is true for the Florida rabbit. However, the Arctic rabbit
and Florida rabbit can mate with the Michigan rabbit. And the
offspring of those matings will breed with either of the two --
Arctic or Florida. In other words, the Arctic rabbit breeds with
the Michigan rabbit and the offspring can breed with the Florida
rabbits. The same is true for of the Florida rabbit breeding with
the Michigan rabbit. Its offspring will breed with the Arctic
rabbit.
 
So, variation within species, or speciation, no Creationist will
ever argue against that, not if they know anything about this
topic. Where we disagree is on macro-evolution. There is not one
iota of evidence to support this position. This is the BIG, BIG
secret within the circles of evolutionists today. This is why so
many evolutionists are turning from Darwinian and neo-Darwinian
theories in search of a theory that works. Also, they are going to
have to figure out how to overcome the laws of physics, but that is
another story.
 
- -----
 
Iain
 
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iwilson@clintonfoundation.org
 
 
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Received on Wed Nov 19 13:30:03 2008