RE: [asa] guns, germs, & steel & M-Genesis

Though it's been while, I enjoyed the book greatly.

His view of advancement in the Fertile Crescent was impressive. The six(?)
grains did seem to give residents there a real advantage. Scripture
states that "there was not man to till the ground" prior to the making of
Adam. It is as if pre-Adamites were all hunter-gatherers, not contrary to
Diamond's view, I think, if we allow 20,000 or so years for Adam . Adam may
have been the first true initiator of agriculture, as he was sent to "till
the ground" (Gen 3:23).

His book also addresses the severe consequences to diseases that are newly
introduced. Adam would have needed a physical biological form that was
fully compatible with the environment. The need for God to dream up an
ideal DNA form from scratch was unnecessary as He already had that structure
that came forth from the pre-Adamaites, who evolved according to God's
design from the earlier physics He gave our universe.

"Coope"

From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of Merv
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 5:34 AM
To: Steve Martin; asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] guns, germs, & steel

Thanks for your reply, Steve. And sorry I haven't been on this last week
--things are really hectic now that school is in full swing.

I'm not surprised to hear (according to your recollection) that he's
probably an atheist. I know he technically isn't an anthropologist either,
though he might as well be with as many related hats as he wears and given
the material he's researched and writes about in this work. I remember
reading somewhere that the field of anthropology has one of the lowest
rates of Christianity (or maybe it was even just theism) --it was well down
in the single digit percentages, I believe.

Yet it is refreshing to note of Diamond's example that not all atheists have
abandoned even any pretense of aspiration towards objectivity. Diamond lets
some of the uglier aspects of the history of organized religion speak for
themselves --not dodging or whitewashing them, of course, but also then not
adding any sweeping diatribes of his own against all religion. In fact he
speaks of traveling about with some friends who happen to be missionaries
and in some places refers to the health & education benefits that (in a
presumably positive sense --at least he didn't suggest otherwise) also
followed with some mission efforts. So he doesn't try to maintain the
embarrassingly naive "religion = everything evil that ever happened /
secularism = everything good that ever happened" dichotomy that seems such
common fair among outspoken atheists today.

--Merv

Steve Martin wrote:

Hi Merv,

I read "Guns, Germs, & Steel" quite a while ago and thoroughly enjoyed it.
(Diamond's follow-up book "Collapse" is also good - but the first was
better). Diamond "doesn't write from an explicitly Christian point of
view" because (I'm pretty sure) he is an atheist. That being said I would
agree that he "doesn't go out of his way to mock or denigrate religion" and
that "his perspective in this work has been level-headed". From what I
recall, he discusses societal development (notice I avoided the "E" word :-)
) without reference to the supernatural, but does not then make conclusions
about the supernatural. (There may be times where his atheistic bias comes
through - I can't recall - but all author's metaphysical biases come through
at times). Contrast that to many other works (eg. Dawkins "Selfish Gene")
which frequently derive anti-supernatural conclusions from natural evidence.

Regarding the interaction of "sin and the fall" with Diamond's ideas, I'm
not sure there is anything really new to discuss. From my understanding,
it is clear that the development of morality and religion occurred very
early on in the history of humanity, much before God revealed himself to
Abraham (or maybe even Adam). This just shows that humanity was designed
to relate to its creator, and would act on those instincts. However, on our
own we could never find God, let alone build a right relationship with God.
Early religion was a seeking that was doomed to fail. That is why God
revealed himself to us, first to the ancient Hebrews in various ways, and
then most explicitly in the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Jesus
Christ.

At least that is the way I understand it.

thanks,
 

On 8/1/08, Merv <mrb22667@kansas.net> wrote:

Jared Diamond, in his book: "Guns, Germs, & Steel" (1997) offers some broad
analytical strokes regarding the history of human societies, and discusses
compellingly the evolutionary natures of the rise & fall of various
civilizations. Even though this isn't his most recent work, and I'm only
half through it, I'm curious if others here have read or discussed Diamond's
observations?

It would be interesting to hear an evolutionary Creationist apply Biblical
criticism and interaction with Diamond's analysis. & how sin & fall are
understood within such an understanding.

Diamond doesn't write from an explicitly Christian point of view, but he
doesn't go out of his way to mock or denigrate religion either. His
perspective in this work has been level-headed and has made for enlightening
reading thus far! Anybody else interested in discussing this? Unless,
of course, bickering among ourselves proves to be more fun...

--Merv

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Received on Fri, 15 Aug 2008 15:36:13 -0500