Re: [asa] Torture

Nor did that defense work for the Assyrians after God had used them (& others
too I think) to punish Israel. Then they were later trampled as punishment for
their evil atrocities against Israel. So God used them, but that still did not
excuse them from responsibility for what they did as a nation. It is our old
friend, the paradox of God's sovereignty and our free will.

You are probably on target to call it a 'no-solution' problem. But I would
still maintain from that from our 'faithfulness' point of view, we probably just
have to renounce such things as wrong, period. Our family always finds it
amusing on TV shows where a murderer is trying to make someone else feel
responsible for what he is about to do. E.g. "If you don't give me the secret
combination to unlock this weapon, I'll kill so and so... you don't want their
death on your conscience do you?" And the victim is then supposed to feel
guilty if he resists and the murderer pulls the trigger. Even if you don't
torture the info out of the terrorist, you would not be one whit responsible for
the hypothetical St. Louis catastrophe. The terrorists have that responsibility
100%. Which of course does nothing for our poor St. Louians.

--Merv

Quoting j burg <hossradbourne@gmail.com>:

> Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Merv. I've commented on it below.
>
> On 8/2/08, mrb22667@kansas.net <mrb22667@kansas.net> wrote:
>
> > Okay --here is an attempt to answer this: Given that you've put yourself
> in
> > this position, you are obviously in the employ of the state and an
> extension
> > of
> > it. Now the state will do what the state will do --without regard to
> > morality
> > except as the voting citizenry forces the issue. So the answer is a
> > foregone
> > conclusion that yes, you will --and would even if you were much less than
> > 99%
> > sure.
>
> That defense did not work at Nuremberg. Even if I am an agent of the
> state, I may not do something clearly unlawful. Yes -- the Nazis were
> simply obeying the law of the state during the Holocaust. That did not
> excuse them.
>
> > ...I think it is imperative to start with an
> > absolute: that torture is just wrong. Period. And then one is forced
> to
> > agonize & weigh out how or if there could ever be exceptions to this. It
> > may be
> > helpful to compare it to a seemingly less severe sin: lying. Nowhere do
> > we
> > get a hint in scripture that lying is ever okay. It doesn't say that in
> > special
> > situations it's okay to bear false witness. It just says not to do it.
> > But
> > then we encounter Rahab who lies and sends the soldiers away, saving the
> > Israelites hidden on her roof. And she is later praised as a hero of the
> > faith.
> > (Ten Boom would be a modern example of this). So is it okay to lie in
> > certain
> > situations then? No such permission or exemptions are ever given. We
> only
> > have
> > Jesus' sweeping and simple injunction to 'let your yes be yes...' and to
> > even
> > shun oaths as a so-called 'higher standard' as if we can practice a double
> > standard between that and common speech.
> >
> > Putting this together: we start with the virtuous command or law and live
> > according to it. It becomes our habit, our automatic response --at least
> if
> > we
> > are successfully training our habits according to the Spirit. Then if we
> > ever
> > deviate from that it should be with effort and agonizing. Falsehood and
> > torture
> > & such should be a foreign language to us and morally repugnant.
> Otherwise
> > it
> > becomes our native tongue. Instead they should all be a last resort just
> as
> > prayer and exhausting all other options ought to be our desperate first
> > resorts.
> > That's my two cents.
>
> And it is appreciated. It does not solve the problem, of course. I am
> of the opinion that there is no solution.
>
> jb
>
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Received on Sat Aug 2 15:41:45 2008