Re: [asa] Creationism Conference

From: Jim Armstrong <jarmstro@qwest.net>
Date: Sun Jun 22 2008 - 19:56:29 EDT

This is a general observation precipitated by this discussion (and other passionate exchanges in the past), and not this specific post.

A fair number of folks who have participated on this listserver have done so for some time. As such, it has been something of a community whose members are well acquainted with one another, and have in common a lot of discussion, including the well-rehearsed differences in perspectives. As in most families, the passage of time and passion often gives rise to greater liberties in the substance and tone of verbal exchanges, particularly when the parties remain undislodged from their disparate perspectives. 

But this unpleasant tone or escalation of rhetoric, however well understood and tolerated by the participants, unintentionally creates a participation barrier for new arrivals to the discussion.

We add to the problem when others outside the ASA organization, yet within our community of faith, are demonized by their "brothers".

That surely must be discouraging to younger hoperful arrivals, as well as quite tiresome for many of the rest of us. Imagine how attractive such discussion appears to a visitor who is troubled by some aspect of their YEC position and drops in on the ASA list to hear a different voice.

The bottom line is that intemperate and demeaning exchanges are expensive, even as they are unnecessary! We and our discourse are impoverished by every new voice unheard, turned away in disappointment by a less than measured, respectful exchange of information and perspectives, particularly in light of the commitment ASA members have in common.

Or so it seemeth to me...    JimA [Friend of ASA]



Stephen Matheson wrote:

George, I appreciate and applaud your Christ-centered work here on this listserv.  I don't think I can overstate the importance I place on your approach and on your faithful re-direction of our attention to Jesus and to the cross.

But I can't go with you here.  "Personalities" were not the focus of my comments.  PEOPLE were.  I know some of the people at the ICC.  Some of these folks are serious thinkers, who are fully aware of the strength of evolutionary theory and of the nature of the evidence they need to explain.  They deserve respect, because they are faithful and honest.  Are they wrong about the age of the earth and the meaning of Genesis?  Of course they are.  Can they affirm the ASA Statement of Faith, without hesitation, and heartily endorse the "General Statement on Creation" in the ASA's Commission on Creation report?  Of course they can.  Does that mean they should be welcome at the ASA table, welcome to discuss and disagree without being treated like crap?  Of course it does.

If we're going to denounce the destructive consequences of YEC biblical interpretation, we need to do it in such a way as to acknowledge that one need not be stupid or evil to make the YEC mistake.  This is precisely the criterion of decency that Bill Dembski just cannot comprehend, and his sickening recent outburst on his blog was an amazing example of the projection of this pathology onto others.  For examples, we can look at our own listserv.  The ID movement is a profound mistake in my judgment, but Mike Gene is a smart and decent thinker who is honestly grappling with some interesting questions.  Blanket denunciations of ID theorists, peppered with gratuitous insults, would hit good people like Mike.  If only for his sake, and for Todd Wood's, and even for mine and yours, let's not engage in these tactics.  I'm working on this myself; I'm not pretending that it's easy.

I'm happy to give "aid and comfort" to those who are honestly mistaken, who acknowledge the strength of others' arguments while they pursue their own ideas and convictions.  If Phil Johnson and Ken Ham had that kind of respect for fellow Christians, this world would surely be a different place.

Steve Matheson
 
  

"George Murphy" <GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com> 06/21/08 8:13 PM >>> 
        

The issue is not - or should not be - personalities.  YEC teachings are 
poisoning the church in the United States and for that matter the broader 
society..  Anything that gives those who promulgate them aid and comfort is 
a mistake.

Shalom
George
http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Stephen Matheson" <smatheso@calvin.edu>
To: "ASA" <asa@calvin.edu>; "Dick Fischer" <dickfischer@verizon.net>
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: [asa] Creationism Conference


  

I know some of the people who will be there, and know them to be 
intelligent and decent persons of high integrity.  So I'm not excited about 
this crass mockery, and I'm especially uncomfortable with the mention of 
"lying."  I'm certain that the conference will include crankery and 
ignorance and maybe even some forms of dishonesty, but I'm also quite sure 
that it will be attended by some scientists with expertise and integrity. 
In the ASA that I would like to belong to (if it exists), young-earth 
creationists of competence and integrity would be fully welcome and would 
feel as comfortable as an evolutionary creationist or design proponent 
would.  I doubt that comments like Dick's give that impression.

I think I understand Dick's response, and I don't want to make it sound 
like I don't also feel immense frustration and anger when considering the 
actions of fellow Christians who claim to reject common descent or the 
ancient earth.  But we really don't want to suggest that Mike Gene is the 
same kind of person that Bill Dembski seems to be, any more than we want 
to suggest that I am the same kind of person that Richard Dawkins seems to 
be, or that Andrew Snelling is the same kind of person that Jonathan 
Sarfati seems to be.  Dick's comments would seem to suggest that one 
cannot expect to find YECs with professional (or personal) integrity.  I 
know this to be untrue.

Oh, and one of these years (next year I hope) I intend to attend an ICC, 
and I would expect to be treated with respect and decency, maybe even with 
warm hospitality.  Wouldn't it be great if our listserv and/or our 
meetings could be characterized like that?

Steve Matheson, who isn't for a moment suggesting that we oughtn't be 
strongly critical of bad ideas

    

"Dick Fischer" <dickfischer@verizon.net> 06/21/08 9:19 AM >>>
          

Looks like a real gathering of eagles.  I wonder if "Lying with a
Straight Face" is a title of any of the conference papers?

Dick Fischer, author, lecturer
Historical Genesis from Adam to Abraham
<http://www.historicalgenesis.com> www.historicalgenesis.com

2008 International Conference on Creationism


This summer, the International Conference on <http://www.icc08.org/>
Creationism (ICC) will be held in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania from August
3-7 at the Radisson Hotel
<http://www.icc08.org/ICCmaptoRadissonHotel10.pdf>  Conference Center.
Creation <http://www.csfpittsburgh.org/>  Science Fellowship (CSF)
working together with The Institute for Creation Research
<http://www.icr.org/>  (ICR) will host this scientific conference
featuring about forty peer-reviewed research papers dealing with the
topic of origins.
The ICC is the world's leading scientific conference for developing the
creation model and will feature about forty
<http://www.icc08.org/schedule.htm>  original papers and special evening
presentations by the world's leading creation researchers and speakers
including Andrew Snelling, Russ Humphreys, John Baumgardner, Steve
Austin, John Sanford, John Whitmore, John Hartnett and many more.  These
papers, as well as the evening presentations are described on the
conference web site which is www.icc08.org <http://www.icc08.org/>  .
This conference will be of special interest to Christian high school and
college science teachers.  The papers cover a wide variety of topics
falling into any one of the following categories: Foundations of
Science, Life Sciences, Stellar and Planetary Sciences, Earth Sciences,
Social Sciences and the Humanities.  These sessions require
registration.
You have three options for conference registration:
1. Register online at www.icc08.org
2. Use the form on our ICC brochure
<http://www.icc08.org/ICC2008_Brochure.pdf> .
3. Use the special Registration PDF Form
<http://www.icc08.org/reg_form.pdf>  available on our web site. It has
form fields so you can type your information and then print it.
The cost is explained in detail with any of the above three resources.
Though the daytime session are technical and require registration, the
evening presentations are free and open to the public.  The technical
level of the evening presentations will be appropriate for the average
adult audience. Teenagers, parents, pastors, and anyone interested in
the topic of origins will all find these evening sessions beneficial.
* Sunday, August 3 - Speaker: Dr. Russ Humphreys, PhD
Topic: Why is the "Age-Issue" important to the Origins Debate and in
particular to the Creation Model of Origins?
* Monday, August 4 - Speaker: Steve Austin, PhD
Topic: Understanding the Mud Flow Revolution
* Tuesday, August 5 - Speaker: John Baumgardner, PhD
Topic: Catastrophic Plate Tectonics: A Mechanism for the Flood.
* Wednesday, Aug. 6 - Speaker: Andrew Snelling, PhD
Topic: The Creation Model: Its Past, Its Present and Its Necessary
Future
My responsibility is to coordinate publicity for the ICC conference.
You can help by copying the text of this article to the clipboard and
pasting it into the body of an email.  Send the email to friends of
yours whom you think would have an interest in this conference.  Feel
free to contact me directly with questions.  My email address is
stevesobek@comcast.net
Steve Sobek
ICC Publicity Coordinator
and CEAI Member
www.icc08.org <http://www.icc08.org/>







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To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message. Received on Sun Jun 22 19:57:27 2008