Re: [asa] The Fall (humanity source of suffering)

Hi Bethany,

“This is my last post for the day since I've reached my limit, but here it goes!”

Oops. It just occurred to me that there is probably a limit for the list and I have been overstepping it today. Let me therefore apologize and post my last reply for the day (I'd post it tomorrow, but I'd probably get distracted).

“How can they be responsible for something that happened long before they existed? You can't say the process of evolution, which includes pain and suffering for animals, was caused by humans. Nor can you say that because an earthquake hit a human settlement and killed the inhabitants that they were responsible for it. How and when were humans responsible?”

Yes, this is the *mystery* and it is quite worthy of exploration (I’ve been thinking this over for years). I do not view these questions as something that forces a choice - I see them as opportunities to probe more deeply. The key at this moment is that I would rather sustain the mystery than start redefining core concepts in Christian theology because of methodological naturalism. On the contrary, by maintaining the both/and approach in place of the either/or approach, perhaps a deeper spiritual understanding is to be had. At least that is how it works (for me) with the other dilemmas I mentioned.

“Or are you saying that these things (that have happened for billions of years) only became 'dark' due to humans?””

Nope.

“True, but pain is a good thing. It stops us from destroying ourselves.”

Good can come out of pain, but I do not think pain is a good thing and good does not always emerge from it. When I herniated a disc in my neck, there was nothing good about that pain. Nothing. If I had to live with that pain every day of my life, it could very well drive me to destroying myself, not stop me. And I have seen too many examples (among those close to me) where pain has disabled just about every aspect of person. It is, I seem to recall, a leading cause of depression.

“Leprosy is a disease which grants the bearer a pain free existence, but who wants it? And nature equally provides millions of humans with joy, pleasure, and life.”

Sure. That’s part of the mystery – the same Creation that brings joy, pleasure, and life also brings sorrow, misery, and suffering.

Let’s see if we can get this back to my original point. You wrote the following to David:

“The reason there will be no more tears or death will be because our bodies, along with the entire cosmos will be on the receiving end of the same type of resurrection that Jesus experienced on Easter morning.”

The very fact that Christians look forward to a resurrection of our bodies *and* the rest of creation stems from the very three aspects I brought up – we hope for an existence without the pain and suffering that other humans and Nature impart and hope to see God clearly. This is because *this* world, *this* reality, is somehow separated from God and the idea behind the Fall is that this lot, this separation, is something WE brought about. And this is what makes Christ's death and suffering the ultimate act of love.

-Mike Gene

  Hey Mike,

  This is my last post for the day since I've reached my limit, but here it goes!

  "I'd say that human beings clearly evolved, yet in some very deep sense, are also responsible for bringing the darkness into our world. "

  How can they be responsible for something that happened long before they existed? You can't say the process of evolution, which includes pain and suffering for animals, was caused by humans. Nor can you say that because an earthquake hit a human settlement and killed the inhabitants that they were responsible for it. How and when were humans responsible? Or are you saying that these things (that have happened for billions of years) only became 'dark' due to humans?

  " Thanks to Nature, millions of humans suffer agonizing pain."
  True, but pain is a good thing. It stops us from destroying ourselves. Leprosy is a disease which grants the bearer a pain free existence, but who wants it? And nature equally provides millions of humans with joy, pleasure, and life.

  Bethany

  On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 12:07 PM, Nucacids wrote:

    Hi Bethany,

    "Mike, if you have #2, natural evil, you run into all sorts of other problems. The entire ecological system (food chains and such) would have had to pop up over night. The same would be true of plate tectonics, air and water circulation and countless other things. Can you really blame all those on the moral choice of two humans?"

    Maybe. Christian theology is rife with these dilemmas. Is God One or Three? Was Jesus God or Man? Do we have free will or is God in charge of everything? Is the Bible the word of God or was it written by men? Are we saved by grace or works? I'm not sure why anyone believes our primitive, limited, primate brains can truly understand how to seamlessly tie these together. So yes, in this case, I'd say that human beings clearly evolved, yet in some very deep sense, are also responsible for bringing the darkness into our world.

    "And, could the world exist without those things?"

    Nope, not our world.

    "The world is dependent on those cycles in order to be able to sustain life. Is that evil?"

    I did not say that Nature is purely evil, but it is a great source of suffering and evil in our world. Thanks to Nature, millions of humans suffer agonizing pain.

    -Mike Gene

To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
Received on Wed Jun 18 15:02:04 2008