Re: [asa] Who's to blame for the lost ones?

Bernie, I understand all too well how you feel -- all too well, believe me.
Let me offer a few thoughts that have been helping me; maybe they'll help
you or maybe not.

First -- I don't see that it's necessary to "drop a literal first human
named Adam." What might be necessary is to allow more room for different
possibilities concerning what it might have meant to be the "literal first
human." Does "human" mean only biology?

Second -- Christian faith springs from a personal relationship with the
risen Christ, not from how we understand the literary genre of Biblical
geneology. If the Biblical geneologies reference some mythic-heroic
characters, does that mean Christ is not raised? Or if "first" in the genre
of Biblical geneology doesn't mean the same thing as "first" in terms of
genetics or some other scientific category, does that mean Christ is not
raised?

Third -- "I am determined to follow the truth wherever it leads." Yes, I
understand that determination well. But what is the final arbiter of
"truth?" What if the limitations we all face as finite, situated human
beings mean that every human search for "truth" based only on human
knowledge and reason ultimately must remain unresolved -- stuck in
paradoxes; pitted with missing data; mired in hindsight bias, confirmation
bias, and other cognitive limitations; and subject to the inevitable changes
of intellectual history? Has any person in all of human history ever
actually "followed the truth wherever it leads" and ended up with
dispationate, comprehensive and accurate understanding of reality? Why
should you expect to be the first? Or could your encounter with the risen
Christ be a reference or lens through which you evaluate and ground truth
claims?

A few maybe helpful books that have helped me at times: Esther Meeks,
"Longing to Know" (http://longingtoknow.com/); Roy Clouser, "Knowing with
the Heart"; Michael Polanyi, "Personal Knowledge"; Leslie Newbiggin, "Proper
Confidence"; Alister McGrath, "Doubting"; John Stackhouse, "Humble
Apologetics".
On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 3:11 PM, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
wrote:

> David said:
> "Did the person who found his YECism shattered and gave up on Christianity
> altogether really trust in and encounter the person of Christ? Or was his
> faith only in a set of propositions?"
>
>
>
> It is like my struggle. I know Christ as well as any born-again
> Christian. Yet, I also pretty much accepted that there was a first human
> named Adam. Since accepting evolution, I think it makes sense to drop a
> literal first human named Adam. The problem is, the Bible treats this Adam
> guy really seriously, even putting him into geneologies. I almost
> fell-away, but at times am still teetering on the edge. I'm still
> studying. I'm considering it may be impossible to reconcile evolution with
> Christianity, esp. after reading the latest ASA Perspectives article called "Optimistic
> Evolutionists: The Progressive Science and religion of Joseph LeConte, Henry
> Ward Beecher, and Lyman Abbott."
>
>
>
> It is like what I learned in my seminary class- Darwinism is a universal
> acid that eats away at everything (philosophical and theological)…
>
>
>
> If I fall away, it would be because Christianity, and the Bible, don't make
> sense in light of evolution. It sounds scary to say, but I am determined to
> follow the truth wherever it leads. I have faith in Christ, but my theology
> is very liquid at this point.
>
>
>
> …Bernie
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* David Opderbeck [mailto:dopderbeck@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, June 05, 2008 11:41 AM
> *To:* Bill Hamilton
> *Cc:* j burg; Dehler, Bernie; asa@calvin.edu
>
> *Subject:* Re: [asa] Who's to blame for the lost ones?
>
>
>
> Bill, you make what I think is a very helpful point here, one which many
> folks often make: our faith is centrally about Christ. I wonder if the
> "blame" isn't so much on any particular view of origins as it is on a highly
> rationalist version of the faith elevates certain propositions, including
> but not least about scripture, above the person of Christ. Did the person
> who found his YECism shattered and gave up on Christianity altogether really
> trust in and encounter the person of Christ? Or was his faith only in a set
> of propositions?
>
> On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 2:33 PM, Bill Hamilton <
> williamehamiltonjr@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Burgy wrote
>
>
> > Glenn Morton has made the claim many times that it is the YECs who are
> > to blame, along with those in the church who swallow their stuff. He
> > has at least strong anecdotal evidence to back his claim.
>
> I certainly agree with Glenn that YECism can be a factor in an individual
> departing from the faith. (As a former Arminian I cannot agree with the
> Calvinist accusation that Arminians believe one can _lose_ his faith. In the
> Wesleyan church I came to know the Lord in we believed that an individual
> could willfully depart from the faith. But _lose_ it? Never)
>
> But my own experience might serve as a counterexample. I encountered YECism
> shortly after I became a Christian. I decided to investigate it and believed
> it for a time. But I soon discovered a number of flaws in it. At that point
> I had to make a decision, and I decided that no matter what I believed about
> creationism, I believed in Jesus Christ, my savior.
>
>
> William E. (Bill) Hamilton, Ph.D. Member ASA
> 248.821.8156 (mobile)
> "...If God is for us, who is against us?" Rom 8:31
> http://www.bricolagia.blogspot.com/
> Want to help a child?:
> http://www.compassion.com/sponsor/index.asp?referer=85198
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> > From: j burg <hossradbourne@gmail.com>
> > To: "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
> > Cc: asa@calvin.edu
> > Sent: Thursday, June 5, 2008 11:31:47 AM
> > Subject: Re: [asa] Who's to blame for the lost ones?
> >
>
> > On 6/4/08, Dehler, Bernie wrote: (in part)
> >
> > > Imagine this, you hear a report at church that 10 kids accepted Christ
> > > in the 3rd grade Sunday School. Everyone claps.>
> > > Fast forward 10 years, and you hear that the kid who entered college
> > > just left the faith because they now believe in evolution.>
> > > Who's to blame, the evolutionist who is teaching the lie of evolution,
> > > or the church who says that evolution is a lie?
> > >>
> > Glenn Morton has made the claim many times that it is the YECs who are
> > to blame, along with those in the church who swallow their stuff. He
> > has at least strong anecdotal evidence to back his claim.
> >
> > I have but one example -- a high school close friend who was a
> > witnessing Christian whem I was not -- who lost his faith in college
> > when he found out the YEC stuff he believed was wrong. Dick went on to
> > a career as an executive with Pitney Bowles (sp?) and is now retired,
> > living in Florida, a confirmed atheist.
> >
> > I think (and pray) for him on occasion. Sad.
> >
> > > I'm thinking more about this because I'm offering to teach a class at
> > > church, and am anticipating the push-back... I think there is a faction
> > > that wants to keep everyone in slumber.
> > >
> > I hope you are successful. I have taught such a class several times
> > (see my web site for material). On the last occasion the regular
> > teacher was (and probably is) a YEC. But she was willing to at least
> > give me equal time (three weeks).
> >
>
> > Burgy
> >
> > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
> > "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
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>
>
>
>
> --
> David W. Opderbeck
> Associate Professor of Law
> Seton Hall University Law School
> Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology
>

-- 
David W. Opderbeck
Associate Professor of Law
Seton Hall University Law School
Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology
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