RE: [asa] Feedback wanted (resurrection)

Bernie wrote:
"How can you truly enjoy anything knowing it is
temporary and fleeting?"

I've heard this argument against Atheists
before...but, like several others who have posted
replies to your comment, I do think it is possible, as
you so put it, to enjoy something even knowing that it
is "temporary and fleeting". Case in point...from an
Atheist website..."why do you build a snowman?" The
answer of course, is to do it for the pure enjoyment
of it--*in spite of* the fact that it is a joy that is
temporary and fleeting. Likewise, an Atheist can enjoy
life even though they know (or believe they know) that
life is temporary and fleeting.

Of course, that begs the question--why is the pursuit
of joy important or worthwhile? What is "joy", really,
in a truly Atheist worldview? Is the question even
worth asking in such a case? It is here, I think, that
the case of Atheism falters--not over the question of
whether or not they are capable of enjoying life and
assigning it value, but over the question of why they
should even bother? At this point in the discussion,
the question of the value of life becomes as neutral
as what color sock I wear today--it simply doesn't
matter anymore. Nevertheless, I can still choose; just
like an Atheist, even believing it doesn't matter, can
still choose to enjoy life.

Okay, so I think that rambled a bit and reiterated the
others' posts, but ah well...there's my 2 cents for
what it's worth :D

In Christ,
Christine (ASA member)

--- "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com> wrote:

> First- I did not give that Scripture as a back-up to
> my point. It was
> an add-on trying to tie the issue of resurrection
> with meaning for life.
>
>
>
> Second- my point had nothing to do with the 'basis
> for morality
> argument."
>
>
>
> Third- my point had everything to do with the
> "meaning of life" and
> "purpose of life."
>
>
>
> David said:
> "If nothing else, many would say, "my reason for
> living is that I enjoy
> life -- what more do I need?""
>
>
>
> I used to think that Atheists could think that and
> be ok with it. Then
> I heard an atheist philosopher saying that that
> viewpoint was nonsense
> and folly. What is there to enjoy if you come from
> nothing and go to
> nothing? It is like trying to enjoy a good dance or
> food on the Titanic
> as it is sinking. How can you truly enjoy anything
> knowing it is
> temporary and fleeting? If you were sent to be
> executed, could you
> really enjoy your last meal, no matter how fancy it
> was and who you
> dined with? Only if you shut-out of your mind the
> coming destruction...
> and that is what atheists have to do in order to
> feel ok. I'm
> suggesting to open that up, like opening a tightly
> bandaged wound, so it
> can get some air and possibly heal. This hope for
> eternal life is built
> into all humans (you might argue animals, also, in
> the will to live).
>
>
>
> I would love to press people like Dawkins and really
> get into their head
> to see how they respond to the emptiness and
> futility of life, in their
> mindset. I think they do it by suppressing thoughts
> about it... so I
> wonder what would happen when that thought is dug-up
> and exposed to
> light.
>
>
>
> And George- if God died, then I guess it is "every
> man for himself."
> We'd live in such a way as to try to have a
> well-functioning
> society-relying totally on logic and reason, as the
> atheists do now.
>
>
>
> ...Bernie
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: David Opderbeck [mailto:dopderbeck@gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 10:47 AM
> To: Dehler, Bernie
> Cc: asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: Re: [asa] Feedback wanted (resurrection)
>
>
>
> I think this is a fair question in many ways,
> Bernie, but I don't think
> 1 Cor. 15 is the right text. The context there is
> whether Christians,
> who base their lives and eternal hopes around belief
> in the risen
> Christ, have wasted their lives if Christ hasn't
> been raised -- and
> Paul's answer is a resounding yes. But if Christ
> has not been raised,
> that doesn't mean non-Christians have no hope -- in
> fact, they would
> presumably have more hope than us -- v. 19, "If only
> for this life we
> have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied above all
> men," suggests
> clearly that others would be better off than us in
> that event. So the
> point in this particular passage isn't that
> unbelievers have no hope;
> it's that believers in Christ have hope in Chirst
> only if Christ really
> was raised.
>
>
>
> If I were an atheist, I'd get really annoyed by "you
> have no reason for
> living" and "you have no basis for your morality"
> arguments. Of course
> many atheists can articulate reasons for living and
> reasons for
> morality; they aren't all dark nihlists who are
> ready to hang
> themselves. If nothing else, many would say, "my
> reason for living is
> that I enjoy life -- what more do I need?" and "my
> basis for morality is
> that everyone should have a shot at enjoying life --
> why do I have to
> explain myself further to you?"
>
>
>
> IMHO, reason for living / reason for morality
> arguments shouldn't be
> played as argumentative trump cards. They should be
> offered, I think,
> in ways that show the winsomeness of a living faith
> in Christ.
> Hopefully the atheist will be attracted to the
> living Christ and realize
> the even deeper, even richer, even more meaningful
> prospect of a life of
> faith.
>
> On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 1:04 PM, Dehler, Bernie
> <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
> wrote:
>
> You might want to ask Dan Barker what reason for
> living he has. I've
> heard the atheist response is "live for the moment"
> because that is all
> you have, but I've heard other philosophers say that
> that is even
> meaningless. I think they can only survive by
> blocking the question out
> of their mind. Everyone has the hope for eternal
> life in some way, even
> if it is a closet fantasy. Without that hope of
> eternal life,
> everything is futile. We come from nothing and go
> to nothing.
>
> 1 Cor. 15:
> 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not
> even Christ has been
> raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our
> preaching is useless
> and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then
> found to be false
> witnesses about God, for we have testified about God
> that he raised
> Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in
> fact the dead are
> not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then
> Christ has not been
> raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised,
> your faith is
> futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those
> also who have fallen
> asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life
> we have hope in
> Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
> [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
> Behalf Of rcmetcalf@thinkagain.us
> Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 9:50 AM
> To: asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: [asa] Feedback wanted
>
> Hi All,
>
> I only recently joined this mailing list after a
> visit with Randy Isaac.
> I've been a member of ASA for quite a while, but
> somehow missed these
>
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Received on Wed May 7 12:55:13 2008