Re: [asa] A case of non-biological ID

Hi Rich,

Thanks for these links. However, I trust you are not claiming them to constitute a fait accompli in respect of 616 superceding 666 as the number of the beast?! Clearly, throughout the intervening centuries there have been those - a minority - who have favoured the lesser figure. But the majority have followed Irenaeus - and for the very good reason (quoted by yourself, and highlighted by myself, below) that his teacher, Polycarp, had heard the truth personally from John himself. Can there be a more reliable conclusion to the matter? Undoubtedly, for this and other good reasons the unique, God-ordained, number must be 666.

In view of this, I must say that your comment, "Thus, Vernon's non-biological ID has the same weakness that biological ID has: an overly stretched inferred teleology when the evidence for it is extremely weak.", comes as a complete surprise. Would you care to elaborate on what you have in mind here? In particular, in what way is my 'inferred teleology' 'overly stretched'? - and where is my evidence 'extremely weak'?

Thanks.

Vernon
www.otherbiblecode.com
www.whatabeginning.com

 
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Rich Blinne
  To: ASA
  Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 6:06 PM
  Subject: Re: [asa] A case of non-biological ID

  If you look at the red arrow of P115, P.Oxy. LXVI 4499, (the oldest extant fragment of this section of Revelation), you'll see that the number is 616 (chi, iota, stigma) and not 666.

  http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:666.jpg

  The discussion from Wikipedia below underscores Dick's point that the number of the Beast refers to Nero. Note particularly Dr. Lewes' comments that the triangular numbers were most likely inserted after the fact and not in the original version of Revelation. Thus, Vernon's non-biological ID has the same weakness that biological ID has: an overly stretched inferred teleology when the evidence for it is extremely weak.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_the_Beast#616

    In May 2005, it was reported that scholars at Oxford University using advanced imaging techniques had been able to read previously illegible portions of the earliest known record of the Book of Revelation, from the Oxyrhynchus site, Papyrus 115 or P115, dating to the mid to late third century. The fragment gives the Number of the Beast as 616 (chi, iota, stigma), rather than the majority text 666 (chi, xi, stigma).The other early witness Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus (C) has it written in full: hexakosiai deka hex(lit. six hundred sixteen).

    Significantly, P115 aligns with Codex Alexandrinus (A) and Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus (C) which are generally regarded as providing the best testimony to Revelation. Thus, P115 has superior testimony to that of P47 which aligns with Codex Sinaiticus and together form the second-best witness to the Book of Revelation. This has led some scholars to conclude that 616 is the original number of the beast.

    Dr. Paul Lewes in his book, A Key to Christian Origins(1932) wrote:

      "The figure 616 is given in one of the two best manuscripts, C (Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus, Paris), by the Latin version of Tyconius (DCXVI, ed. Souter in the Journal of Theology, SE, April 1913), and by an ancient Armenian version (ed. Conybaere, 1907). Irenaeus knew about it [the 616 reading], but did not adopt it (Haer. v.30,3), Jerome adopted it (De Monogramm., ed. Dom G Morin in the Rev. Benedictine, 1903). It is probably original. The number 666 has been substituted for 616 either by analogy with 888, the [Greek] number of Jesus (Deissmann), or because it is a triangular number, the sum of the first 36 numbers (1+2+3+4+5+6...+36 = 666)".

    Professor David Parker, Professor of New Testament Textual Criticism and Paleography at the University of Birmingham, thinks that 616, although less memorable than 666, is the original. Dr. Ellen Aitken said, "Scholars have argued for a long time over this, and it now seems that 616 was the original number of the beast. It's probably about 100 years before any other version."

    The early Church father Irenaeus knew several occurrences of the 616-variant but regarded them as a scribal error and affirmed that the number 666 stood "in all the most approved and ancient copies" and is attested by "those men who saw John face to face".

    The difference in numbers has also been explained by the fact that the Greek and Latin spellings of Nero's name transliterate differently into Hebrew (the language used to create the coded numerology). The Greek spelling, "Neron Caesar," transliterates into Hebrew as "nrwn qsr," which equates numerically to 666 (Hebrew letters double as numbers for both practical and theological purposes; see entries at Hebrew numerals and gematria). By contrast, the Latin title for Nero is spelled simply "Nero Caesar," which transliterates to "nrw qsr," or 616.

  On Jan 9, 2008 10:00 AM, Dick Fischer <dickfischer@verizon.net> wrote:

    How can original Hebrew have a " fair alternative reading"? What words or letters need to be altered to make the numbers work? And 666 is just code for Nero so John wouldn't get martyred. No other significance besides that. Had his name been different the numbers would have been similarly affected. I think your "cast iron" is a wee bit rusty.

    Dick Fischer

    Dick Fischer , Genesis Proclaimed Association

    Finding Harmony in Bible, Science, and History

    www.genesisproclaimed.org

    -----Original Message-----
    From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Vernon Jenkins
    Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 9:35 AM
    To: asa@calvin.edu

    Subject: [asa] A case of non-biological ID

    Forum,

    I submit the following notice (which appears in the current issue of the Journal of the Scientific and Medical Network) for the attention of new members and for those Christians who may wish to be reminded of relevant, cast iron, facts.

       Here is a mystery. It transpires that a fair alternative reading of the Hebrew of the Bible's first verse uncovers a structure of coordinated numerical geometries which, in all its essentials, incorporates information delivered expressly in the Greek of verse 13:18 of its final book, Revelation. Key to the whole matter is the understanding that 666 has a substantial extrabiblical presence, (1) as epitome of triangularity and, (2) as first triangular multiple of the unique number 37. In the first of these roles, all its numerical attributes are observed to be triangles - their sum, the unique cube 216, or 6x6x6. In the second, the Genesis 1:1 structure is observed to comprise the first three triangular multiples of 37 - the third being 2701 (sum of the 7 words) having a perimeter of 216.

       To whom will we attribute this impressive feat of non-biological intelligent design? - for the inference must be that, from the beginning, it was planned that the Bible should be a self-authenticating text!

    www.otherbiblecode.com

    www.whatabeginning.com

    A concise overview of these phenomena may be found at www.whatabeginning.com/Misc/Wonders/P.htm and www.whatabeginning.com/ObDec.htm

    Vernon

To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
Received on Thu Jan 10 16:17:46 2008