Re: [asa] A case of non-biological ID

If you look at the red arrow of P115, P.Oxy. LXVI 4499, (the oldest extant
fragment of this section of Revelation), you'll see that the number is 616
(chi, iota, stigma) and not 666.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:666.jpg

The discussion from Wikipedia below underscores Dick's point that the number
of the Beast refers to Nero. Note particularly Dr. Lewes' comments that the
triangular numbers were most likely inserted after the fact and not in the
original version of Revelation. Thus, Vernon's non-biological ID has the
same weakness that biological ID has: an overly stretched inferred teleology
when the evidence for it is extremely weak.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_the_Beast#616

> In May 2005, it was reported that scholars at Oxford University using
> advanced imaging techniques had been able to read previously illegible
> portions of the earliest known record of the Book of Revelation, from the
> Oxyrhynchus site, Papyrus 115 or P115, dating to the mid to late third
> century. The fragment gives the Number of the Beast as 616 (chi, iota,
> stigma), rather than the majority text 666 (chi, xi, stigma).The other early
> witness Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus (C) has it written in full: hexakosiai
> deka hex(lit. six hundred sixteen).
>
> Significantly, P115 aligns with Codex Alexandrinus (A) and Codex Ephraemi
> Rescriptus (C) which are generally regarded as providing the best testimony
> to Revelation. Thus, P115 has superior testimony to that of P47 which aligns
> with Codex Sinaiticus and together form the second-best witness to the Book
> of Revelation. This has led some scholars to conclude that 616 is the
> original number of the beast.
>
> Dr. Paul Lewes in his book, A Key to Christian Origins(1932) wrote:
>
>
> "The figure 616 is given in one of the two best manuscripts, C (Codex
> > Ephraemi Rescriptus, Paris), by the Latin version of Tyconius (DCXVI, ed.
> > Souter in the Journal of Theology, SE, April 1913), and by an ancient
> > Armenian version (ed. Conybaere, 1907). Irenaeus knew about it [the 616
> > reading], but did not adopt it (Haer. v.30,3), Jerome adopted it (De
> > Monogramm., ed. Dom G Morin in the Rev. Benedictine, 1903). It is probably
> > original. The number 666 has been substituted for 616 either by analogy with
> > 888, the [Greek] number of Jesus (Deissmann), or because it is a triangular
> > number, the sum of the first 36 numbers (1+2+3+4+5+6...+36 = 666)".
> >
>
> Professor David Parker, Professor of New Testament Textual Criticism and
> Paleography at the University of Birmingham, thinks that 616, although less
> memorable than 666, is the original. Dr. Ellen Aitken said, "Scholars have
> argued for a long time over this, and it now seems that 616 was the original
> number of the beast. It's probably about 100 years before any other
> version."
>
> The early Church father Irenaeus knew several occurrences of the
> 616-variant but regarded them as a scribal error and affirmed that the
> number 666 stood "in all the most approved and ancient copies" and is
> attested by "those men who saw John face to face".
>
> The difference in numbers has also been explained by the fact that the
> Greek and Latin spellings of Nero's name transliterate differently into
> Hebrew (the language used to create the coded numerology). The Greek
> spelling, "Neron Caesar," transliterates into Hebrew as "nrwn qsr," which
> equates numerically to 666 (Hebrew letters double as numbers for both
> practical and theological purposes; see entries at Hebrew numerals and
> gematria). By contrast, the Latin title for Nero is spelled simply "Nero
> Caesar," which transliterates to "nrw qsr," or 616.
>

On Jan 9, 2008 10:00 AM, Dick Fischer <dickfischer@verizon.net> wrote:

> How can original Hebrew have a* "**fair alternative reading"? What words
> or letters need to be altered to make the numbers work? And 666 is just
> code for Nero so John wouldn't get martyred. No other significance besides
> that. Had his name been different the numbers would have been similarly
> affected. I think your "cast iron" is a wee bit rusty.*
>
>
>
> Dick Fischer
>
> Dick Fischer, Genesis Proclaimed Association
>
> Finding Harmony in Bible, Science, and History
>
> www.genesisproclaimed.org
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] *On
> Behalf Of *Vernon Jenkins
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 09, 2008 9:35 AM
> *To:* asa@calvin.edu
> *Subject:* [asa] A case of non-biological ID
>
>
>
> Forum,
>
>
>
> I submit the following notice (which appears in the current issue of the *Journal
> of the Scientific and Medical Network*) for the attention of new members
> and for those Christians who may wish to be reminded of relevant, cast iron,
> facts.
>
>
>
> * **Here is a mystery. It transpires that a fair alternative reading of
> the Hebrew of the Bible's first verse uncovers a structure of coordinated
> numerical geometries which, in all its essentials, incorporates information
> delivered expressly in the Greek of verse 13:18 of its final book,
> Revelation. Key to the whole matter is the understanding that 666 has a
> substantial extrabiblical presence, (1) as epitome of triangularity and, (2)
> as first triangular multiple of the unique number 37. In the first of these
> roles, all its numerical attributes are observed to be triangles -
> their sum, the unique cube 216, or 6x6x6. In the second, the Genesis 1:1
> structure is observed to comprise the first three triangular multiples of 37
> - the third being 2701 (sum of the 7 words) having a perimeter of 216.*
>
>
>
> * To whom will we attribute this impressive feat of non-biological
> intelligent design? - for the inference must be that, from the beginning, it
> was planned that the Bible should be a self-authenticating text!*
>
>
>
> *www.otherbiblecode.com*
>
> *www.whatabeginning.com*
>
>
>
> *A concise overview of these phenomena may be found at **
> www.whatabeginning.com/Misc/Wonders/P.htm** and **
> www.whatabeginning.com/ObDec.htm*
>
>
>
> Vernon
>
> * *
>

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Received on Wed Jan 9 13:07:27 2008