RE: [asa] Creation Care Magazine

I actually have always respected the spiritual focus and traditions of the
cultures like the Anabaptists, Mennonites and Amish that have given rise to
this concept of pacifism in Christianity. I think their contribution has
been valuable and positive, even if it wasn't right in every detail. I will
admit when we had that school hostage situation up there last year in the
Amish school where several girls were abused and killed and they made a
public statement of forgiveness for the gunman, that was impressive and a
very good witness. So to this extent I will agree with you about their rich
spiritual traditions and retract my YEC comparisons.
 
But where I think it becomes counterproductive is when this pacifism leaks
out into national politics like we are seeing today. The Amish can exist
with their politics only here in America and other Western nations. I don't
think that would be a trait selected upon for survival and propagation in
Sudan for instance or Pakistan. You can draw a parallel here with Bhutto's
recent assassination and their claims that enough security wasn't provided
for their reformers. Spiritual change and reform will always be met with
this type of violence.
 
This philosophy may be a neutral mutation here due to other factors but it
would deleterious in most other environments. Dawkins is right when he says
life is not exactly survival of the fittest but of the fit enough. Selection
pressures are relaxed in certain enviroments where the food supply is
bountiful enough to support larger populations including some that wouldn't
survive under other selection pressures and I contend this equates to this
pacifist philosophy.
 
It is fine for a church doctrine in an isolated community but I think it is
impractical to consider that as a national policy. They are afforded that
privilege here and conscientious objector military status which I think is a
good thing because we value conscience but we also value kids with special
needs in our schools as well. The point is that regardless of their
otherwise positive and valuable contributions to society we shouldn't build
a national governmental policy out of some doctrine when it is clearly and
demonstrably flawed. We would all be wise to recognize that.
 
Thanks
 
John
 

-----Original Message-----
From: David Opderbeck [mailto:dopderbeck@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 9:51 AM
To: John Walley
Cc: mrb22667@kansas.net; asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] Creation Care Magazine

JOhn said: Pollyanna approach to dealing with fallen human nature and evil
is counterproductive and takes away from Christian witness just like YECism
does.

Ok -- let's not equate the entire rich anabaptist / Christian pacifist
tradition with YECism. It's much more robust and nuanced than we can do
justice to here. Check out the many writings of John Howard Yoder (starting
with "The Politics of Jesus"), and of course the enormous output of Stanley
Hauerwas. See also an excellent recent study on church-state issues from
an anabaptist perspective by Craig Carter, Rethinking Christ and Culture.
Also, Glen Stassen and David Gushee's outstanding Kingdom Ethics -- which
isn't really anabaptist but shoots for a middle ground "just peacemaking"
ethic.

 
On Dec 29, 2007 6:05 AM, John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com> wrote:

> (let alone to perpetrate evil on others in order to fight evil.)

Referring to rulers, Rom 13: 4 says:

For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is

evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the
minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Being a minister of God and bearing the sword and executing wrath upon
people sounds pretty much like the antithesis of this comment above. I don't
see how you can rationally say this. Were the evils of war on Hitler and
other aggressors in history not justified? There is a reason why we have the

concept of "necessary evil". It is because we live in a fallen world with
fallen human beings and evil demonic forces in a spiritual war against God.

> --Not that I wouldn't fall and behave like everybody else when
> I or my family is actually threatened

This view of defending ourselves and our families as a moral failing is
dangerous as it basically incentivizes evil. If Christians believe it is
wrong to defend themselves or protect their property they will always be
plundered by those that are less noble in their morals and then only evil
will result.

As you point out, the teachings of Jesus don't translate exactly to our
responsibilities under civil government, so this appears to be left to us to
use our judgment and conscience. I think the system we have today from our
wise founders that recognizes property rights and protects them as the fruit
of our labor and as an extension of our life and livelihood, is very
reasonable and has served us well. In contrast, it doesn't victimize anyone
to earn their own bread by the sweat of their brow instead of plundering
those more diligent or even more fortunate. As a result, I think this
idealistic, Pollyanna approach to dealing with fallen human nature and evil
is counterproductive and takes away from Christian witness just like YECism
does.

Thanks

John

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:
<mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu> asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On

Behalf Of mrb22667@kansas.net
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 12:57 PM
To: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] Creation Care Magazine

Quoting David Opderbeck <dopderbeck@gmail.com>:

> Ok, I realize this has gotten very off-topic for the list, so I'll
> make this my last.... Just to fill in where I'm coming from on all
> this, I find a "just peacemaking" perspective as advocated by Glen
> Stassen to be helpful in sorting out how we individually and
> collectively live out a Christian ethic. Just peacemaking seeks to
> fill a gap between classical "just war" and anabaptist-pacifist
> theories. For more, see here:
> http://www.fuller.edu/sot/faculty/stassen/cp_content/homepage/homepage
> .htm
>
I don't think this is so off-topic, David. Care for creation also involves
care for each other (enemies included). And thanks for at least
seeking/defending possible alternatives to the whole "right-to-bear-arms"
attitude juggernaut.
(As an anabaptist, I am encouraged to hear that others are struggling with
this as well.)

As I've heard commented before: If only Jesus had had the good samaritan
arrive
*before* the bandits had finished their dirty work, then we could have seen
what he would have our good samaritan do! The Bible makes it too easy for
us to arrive at whichever conclusion we want on this since there is plenty
to back the anabaptist position, but then detractors will always find
comfort in the fact that Jesus didn't tell the centurion to get another job.
Nor, for that matter, did he advocate a military resistance to Rome (much to

the disappointment, and despite the ever-ready encouragement, of some of his
closest followers.) Nor did he tell slave owners to free their slaves; He
just wasn't a "top-down" "let's change the institutions" kind of guy. But
to call that an endorsement of those instituions is, I think you would all
agree, a stretch.

What we don't know, though, is how Jesus would have had Christians live in a
democracy that purports to be "we the people". Nor do we have any context
from
the Bible for what Christianity is to be like when it becomes a large
institution weilding influence on democratic governments. Instead it was
all in the context of a small, persecuted "rag-tag" that lives in the midst
of a hostile society. (I mean, *really* hostile, not the "hostility" that
we Christians like to imagine we are suffering today when legislation tells
us we
shouldn't do this or that in public areas.) But, for better or worse, the
Bible doesn't spell it out for us, what we're to do when the Emporers like
Constatine come along.

All I know, though, is that He wouldn't (didn't) see this life as the
ultimate existence to protect at all costs (let alone to perpetrate evil on
others in order to fight evil.) We Christians, of all people, ought to at
least have a
handle on that. --Not that I wouldn't fall and behave like everybody else
when
I or my family is actually threatened, but I at least have and recognize the

calling to a higher eternal standard. And it comes from the Bible, not the
U.S. constitution.

--Merv

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Received on Sat Dec 29 10:48:53 2007