Re: [asa] Creation Care Magazine

JOhn said: *Pollyanna approach to dealing with fallen human nature and evil
is counterproductive and takes away from Christian witness just like YECism
does.
*
Ok -- let's not equate the entire rich anabaptist / Christian pacifist
tradition with YECism. It's much more robust and nuanced than we can do
justice to here. Check out the many writings of John Howard Yoder (starting
with "The Politics of Jesus"), and of course the enormous output of Stanley
Hauerwas. See also an excellent recent study on church-state issues from
an anabaptist perspective by Craig Carter, Rethinking Christ and Culture.
Also, Glen Stassen and David Gushee's outstanding Kingdom Ethics -- which
isn't really anabaptist but shoots for a middle ground "just peacemaking"
ethic.

On Dec 29, 2007 6:05 AM, John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > (let alone to perpetrate evil on others in order to fight evil.)
>
> Referring to rulers, Rom 13: 4 says:
>
> For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which
> is
> evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the
> minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
>
> Being a minister of God and bearing the sword and executing wrath upon
> people sounds pretty much like the antithesis of this comment above. I
> don't
> see how you can rationally say this. Were the evils of war on Hitler and
> other aggressors in history not justified? There is a reason why we have
> the
> concept of "necessary evil". It is because we live in a fallen world with
> fallen human beings and evil demonic forces in a spiritual war against
> God.
>
>
> > --Not that I wouldn't fall and behave like everybody else when
> > I or my family is actually threatened
>
> This view of defending ourselves and our families as a moral failing is
> dangerous as it basically incentivizes evil. If Christians believe it is
> wrong to defend themselves or protect their property they will always be
> plundered by those that are less noble in their morals and then only evil
> will result.
>
> As you point out, the teachings of Jesus don't translate exactly to our
> responsibilities under civil government, so this appears to be left to us
> to
> use our judgment and conscience. I think the system we have today from our
> wise founders that recognizes property rights and protects them as the
> fruit
> of our labor and as an extension of our life and livelihood, is very
> reasonable and has served us well. In contrast, it doesn't victimize
> anyone
> to earn their own bread by the sweat of their brow instead of plundering
> those more diligent or even more fortunate. As a result, I think this
> idealistic, Pollyanna approach to dealing with fallen human nature and
> evil
> is counterproductive and takes away from Christian witness just like
> YECism
> does.
>
> Thanks
>
> John
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
> Behalf Of mrb22667@kansas.net
> Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 12:57 PM
> To: asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: Re: [asa] Creation Care Magazine
>
>
> Quoting David Opderbeck <dopderbeck@gmail.com>:
>
> > Ok, I realize this has gotten very off-topic for the list, so I'll
> > make this my last.... Just to fill in where I'm coming from on all
> > this, I find a "just peacemaking" perspective as advocated by Glen
> > Stassen to be helpful in sorting out how we individually and
> > collectively live out a Christian ethic. Just peacemaking seeks to
> > fill a gap between classical "just war" and anabaptist-pacifist
> > theories. For more, see here:
> > http://www.fuller.edu/sot/faculty/stassen/cp_content/homepage/homepage
> > .htm
> >
> I don't think this is so off-topic, David. Care for creation also
> involves
> care for each other (enemies included). And thanks for at least
> seeking/defending possible alternatives to the whole "right-to-bear-arms"
> attitude juggernaut.
> (As an anabaptist, I am encouraged to hear that others are struggling with
> this as well.)
>
> As I've heard commented before: If only Jesus had had the good samaritan
> arrive
> *before* the bandits had finished their dirty work, then we could have
> seen
> what he would have our good samaritan do! The Bible makes it too easy for
> us to arrive at whichever conclusion we want on this since there is plenty
> to back the anabaptist position, but then detractors will always find
> comfort in the fact that Jesus didn't tell the centurion to get another
> job.
> Nor, for that matter, did he advocate a military resistance to Rome (much
> to
> the disappointment, and despite the ever-ready encouragement, of some of
> his
> closest followers.) Nor did he tell slave owners to free their slaves;
> He
> just wasn't a "top-down" "let's change the institutions" kind of guy. But
> to call that an endorsement of those instituions is, I think you would all
> agree, a stretch.
>
> What we don't know, though, is how Jesus would have had Christians live in
> a
> democracy that purports to be "we the people". Nor do we have any
> context
> from
> the Bible for what Christianity is to be like when it becomes a large
> institution weilding influence on democratic governments. Instead it was
> all in the context of a small, persecuted "rag-tag" that lives in the
> midst
> of a hostile society. (I mean, *really* hostile, not the "hostility" that
> we Christians like to imagine we are suffering today when legislation
> tells
> us we
> shouldn't do this or that in public areas.) But, for better or worse,
> the
> Bible doesn't spell it out for us, what we're to do when the Emporers like
> Constatine come along.
>
> All I know, though, is that He wouldn't (didn't) see this life as the
> ultimate existence to protect at all costs (let alone to perpetrate evil
> on
> others in order to fight evil.) We Christians, of all people, ought to at
> least have a
> handle on that. --Not that I wouldn't fall and behave like everybody
> else
> when
> I or my family is actually threatened, but I at least have and recognize
> the
> calling to a higher eternal standard. And it comes from the Bible, not
> the
> U.S. constitution.
>
> --Merv
>
>
>
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Received on Sat Dec 29 09:51:53 2007