RE: [asa] Creation Care Magazine

Quoting John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com>:

> But where I think it becomes counterproductive is when this pacifism leaks
> out into national politics like we are seeing today. The Amish can exist
> with their politics only here in America and other Western nations. I don't
> think that would be a trait selected upon for survival and propagation in
> Sudan for instance or Pakistan. You can draw a parallel here with Bhutto's
> recent assassination and their claims that enough security wasn't provided
> for their reformers. Spiritual change and reform will always be met with
> this type of violence.
> ...
> It is fine for a church doctrine in an isolated community but I think it is
> impractical to consider that as a national policy. They are afforded that
> privilege here and conscientious objector military status which I think is a
> good thing because we value conscience but we also value kids with special
> needs in our schools as well. The point is that regardless of their
> otherwise positive and valuable contributions to society we shouldn't build
> a national governmental policy out of some doctrine when it is clearly and
> demonstrably flawed. We would all be wise to recognize that.
>
> Thanks
>
> John
>
Okay -- I think I just shot off a lengthy post yesterday into cyber-nothingness.
 But just as well; now it will get reproduced in distilled form. (maybe)

David, I've read Yoder's "Politics of Jesus", but I've never read any of the
others. Thanks for those connections. I'll have to look into them sometime.

John, it isn't the aspirations of the Amish or any of the Anabaptists to live
behind an armed curtain so that they can then enjoy the benefits of security and
freedom (the type that is provided by and protected with guns) while ducking any
responsibility of participation themselves. And if we do live like that and
insist on those worldly freedoms without joining in the fight for them, then
yes, we are (or would be) hypocrites, plain & simple.

It is precisely because we live in an ugly fallen and selfish world that Jesus
shows the only real way out of the ugly cycle of revenge, money, power-hoarding,
weaponry, etc. If He had given us freedom that needed a sword to back it, then
he wouldn't have told his eager disciples to put their swords away. And
Anabaptists have a legacy that stretches back before America as we know it was
ever on the scene. And it was these very western European nations that they
lived in and fled from where they caught it hot for living out what Jesus
taught. But they did so through torture and death. Do we enjoy the so-called
"worldly freedoms"? Of course. Which accounts for the "fleeing" part of that
history. But are we willing to kill for them? Hopefully not. We already
have the true freedom we need, and no principality or power can separate us from
it. In fact, Jesus already triumphed over all those things leading them in
defeated public procession. And he did it without firing a single bullet. So
obviously Paul wasn't speaking of the sort of military victory we still get so
excited about today -- the kind that is fought with weapons of flesh and blood.
 Our weapons are not of flesh and blood.

If it really was a matter of my sacrificing myself so that my children and
nation could enjoy these physical freedoms, that would be one thing -- and an
honorable one at that. But war isn't like that. I suspect that General Patton
 had the more accurate view of war: to quote him from memory: "You don't win a
war by dying for your country; you win a war by making the other guy die for his
country." So it isn't really "Give me freedom or give me death" -- war is
"give me freedom or I'll kill you, and everybody else that tries to interfere
with my freedom. It's the way governments operate -- and individuals too in
their natural selves. But the Bible isn't about calling us to be natural or
normal. And we Anabaptists are, I think, misguided only if we do try to
overlay a pacifistic schema onto national policies as you worry about (& I think
your worry is quite misplaced -- the day we live out our motto "In God We Trust"
instead of our real motto "In superior weaponry we trust" will be the day hell
freezes over). We Anabaptists may not expect this of governments but, then, we
never tried to baptize ours (or any other) government and pretend it is
Christian either. Never was; never will be --(until Christ himself comes to
reign). Military nations (the U.S. included) are more in the category of the
grass of the field which is here today and gone tomorrow. I don't think Jesus
was just whistling Dixie when he told his disciples "he who lives by the sword
dies by the sword." And with our present addiction to Meanwhile, though,
some of us will cast our votes in a democracy. And while those will never turn
a government into a Christian one, they can influence it for better (and for
that government's own good.) It will be interesting to see what sorts of middle
ground people are carving out with that awareness and influence. Perhaps there
is some short term hope. But regardless, our real investment awaits us where
moth, rust, thief, and invading marauders cannot reach.

Now -- can I live by these words? No. At the first threat to my family,
I’ll probably do the natural thing and try to protect them at any cost. But I
won’t defend that as a Christian sentiment, if “any cost” begins to mean
choosing which lives beyond my own I am free to sacrifice. But if the phrase
“pacifist” means “standing idly by in the presence of evil,” then I’m not a
pacifist.

One other thing, I in no way malign the honor and service rendered by troops in
service to their country. And I don’t dispute that they may have done it in
good Christian conscience according to their own faith tradition. But I do
have some say as a citizen in this country about what those troops are being
asked to do (and endure) on my behalf. And I cast my votes accordingly. My
issues are with “we the people” whose priorities send them over to Iraq in the
first place.

--Merv

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Received on Sun Dec 30 14:59:26 2007