Re: [asa] Behe's mousetrap

Folks,

-- 
James Mahaffy (mahaffy@dordt.edu)          Phone: 712 722-6279
498 4th Ave NE
Biology Department                                     FAX :  712 722-1198
Dordt College, Sioux Center IA 51250-1697
>>> On 12/19/2007 at 11:26 AM, in message
<20071219173210.C4DCA710E33@gray.dordt.edu>, "Dehler, Bernie"
<bernie.dehler@intel.com> wrote:
> About Behe and the mousetrap... is Behe saying God created the entire
> mousetrap through evolution, or God did a "poof" and there it was,
> appearing as a system all at once? I thought Behe's argument is that
> evolution can't explain the mousetrap, that it can't come into being
> piece-wise in many small steps (therefore, it came into existence by
> "poof").  Am I wrong?  In other words, how exactly is Behe saying the
> mouse-trap, that is the flagellum motor, came into being?
> 
> A.	Through God-guided evolution.
Since he has no problem with common descent, he would, I think,  be open to God using genetic material that was there.  He is just saying it is impossible for these complex cellular machinery to gradually come together.  You should be aware the the flagella is only one of many very complex structures.  I am thinking of nuclear pores, electron transport chains, how chromosomes are moved by microtubules to name but a few (I just finished teaching cell biology).  So he would say the parts would have to all be there at one time and he has a good point. 
James Mahaffy
> B.	Special creation by God with all parts at once. 
> 
>  
> 
> ________________________________
> 
> From: philtill@aol.com [mailto:philtill@aol.com] 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:55 PM
> To: Dehler, Bernie
> Cc: asa@calvin.edu 
> Subject: Re: [asa] Has a Christian Evolutionist written this yet?
> 
>  
> 
> Hi Bernie,
> 
> I think you have over-generalized what IDers are trying to disprove.
> Some IDers indeed want to disprove evolution, but other IDers like Behe
> only want to disprove the idea that evolution is sufficient to explain
> everything without God's involvement.  He thinks the "mousetrap-like"
> structures required God's direction to overcome the improbabilities and
> make them evolve.  The TEs among the IDers have not been outspoken about
> their position perhaps because they were trying to include the YEC's
> into their big-tent to fight against philosophical naturalism.
> 
> For the record, I think ID has adopted invalid methods and will
> therefore always be a failure.  I believe what the Bible says, that God
> hides from the wise and reveals himself to the humble.  ID seems to
> think we can flush God out from hiding by using advanced biomolecular
> arguments.  The poor humble slobs who can't understand gene sequencing
> are at a disadvantage.  They can't apprehend God's existence as well as
> the wise biomolecular scientists can when guided by the principles of
> ID.  So if ID is correct, then the bible must be false.  To the
> contrary, I believe God has not made the kind of universe that forces
> His existence upon us through bare science alone, although with faith
> and repentence we may truly apprehend His beauty in science.
> 
> Phil
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
> Cc: asa@calvin.edu 
> Sent: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 2:32 pm
> Subject: RE: [asa] Has a Christian Evolutionist written this yet?
> 
> Hi Phil-
> 
>  
> 
>  Here's my understanding.  ID has a program and main thrust called
> "teach the controversy."  I have their book "Exploring Evolution."  I
> assume that is their main vehicle.
> 
>  
> 
>  From what I can tell, ID teaches nothing positively.  What they do is
> try to bring up arguments as to why evolution (on the macro scale) could
> not have happened.  Therefore, they are not evolutionists.  Behe is
> strange-seems to be saying yes/no to evolution, and I don't understand
> his position; but ID as a movement I think is defined as I previously
> just wrote.
> 
>  
> 
>  What I wrote below indicates a strong belief in evolution, only a
> version that is guided by God... not simply depending on chance and
> natural selection to create something new and beautiful in DNA. So
> ID'ers, as I know them, would reject point 3 and say God made special
> corrections.
> 
>  
> 
>  Example: Behe's "mousetrap."  Made as a unit by God's special power or
> did it evolve? ID says it is made special and it couldn't have evolved.
> I accept God directed the evolution of it.
> 
>  
> 
> ________________________________
> 
> From: philtill@aol.com [mailto:philtill@aol.com 
> <mailto:philtill@aol.com?> ] 
> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 5:34 PM
> To: Dehler, Bernie
> Cc: asa@calvin.edu 
> Subject: Re: [asa] Has a Christian Evolutionist written this yet?
> 
>  
> 
> Bernie,
> 
> this is probably a very accurate description of Behe and many other
> IDers.  I'm curious to know what you think is different about the TE of
> those IDers who are TE.
> 
> Phil
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
> Cc: asa@calvin.edu 
> Sent: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 7:03 pm
> Subject: [asa] Has a Christian Evolutionist written this yet?
> 
> Hi all-
>  
>  Does anyone know of a book that someone has written that basically
> explains that God uses evolution as his design means?  I mean, that God
> is actively engaged in messing with DNA code as a programmer writing
> computer code, not simply just starting it all off at the big bang, as
> Howard Van Till would say.  I'm thinking of a combination of Intelligent
> Design (not ID as it is now) with Evolution.  Basically, the conclusion
> is drawn from:
>  
> 1. Evolution is too unlikely as to have happened naturally (ex.
> anthropic principle & origin of life mysteries).
> 2. Genome evidence shows evolution happened (ex. pseudogenes).
> 3. Therefore, evolution happened supernaturally.
>  
>  I would call the position "Christian Evolution," and a follower a
> "Christian Evolutionist."  It is the Christian faith combined with
> evolution... I hope that isn't syncretistic.
>  
>  Atheists may say that "evolution is an unguided process of creating
> more complex life-forms from simpler," but the Christian Evolutionist
> can say it is the "guided" process.  Then a tough question would be "if
> God is guiding it, then why is there so much disease and bad genes?"
> Good one.
>  
>  
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