[asa] Behe's mousetrap

About Behe and the mousetrap... is Behe saying God created the entire
mousetrap through evolution, or God did a "poof" and there it was,
appearing as a system all at once? I thought Behe's argument is that
evolution can't explain the mousetrap, that it can't come into being
piece-wise in many small steps (therefore, it came into existence by
"poof"). Am I wrong? In other words, how exactly is Behe saying the
mouse-trap, that is the flagellum motor, came into being?

A. Through God-guided evolution.
B. Special creation by God with all parts at once.

________________________________

From: philtill@aol.com [mailto:philtill@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:55 PM
To: Dehler, Bernie
Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] Has a Christian Evolutionist written this yet?

Hi Bernie,

I think you have over-generalized what IDers are trying to disprove.
Some IDers indeed want to disprove evolution, but other IDers like Behe
only want to disprove the idea that evolution is sufficient to explain
everything without God's involvement. He thinks the "mousetrap-like"
structures required God's direction to overcome the improbabilities and
make them evolve. The TEs among the IDers have not been outspoken about
their position perhaps because they were trying to include the YEC's
into their big-tent to fight against philosophical naturalism.

For the record, I think ID has adopted invalid methods and will
therefore always be a failure. I believe what the Bible says, that God
hides from the wise and reveals himself to the humble. ID seems to
think we can flush God out from hiding by using advanced biomolecular
arguments. The poor humble slobs who can't understand gene sequencing
are at a disadvantage. They can't apprehend God's existence as well as
the wise biomolecular scientists can when guided by the principles of
ID. So if ID is correct, then the bible must be false. To the
contrary, I believe God has not made the kind of universe that forces
His existence upon us through bare science alone, although with faith
and repentence we may truly apprehend His beauty in science.

Phil

-----Original Message-----
From: Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Sent: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 2:32 pm
Subject: RE: [asa] Has a Christian Evolutionist written this yet?

Hi Phil-

 Here's my understanding. ID has a program and main thrust called
"teach the controversy." I have their book "Exploring Evolution." I
assume that is their main vehicle.

 From what I can tell, ID teaches nothing positively. What they do is
try to bring up arguments as to why evolution (on the macro scale) could
not have happened. Therefore, they are not evolutionists. Behe is
strange-seems to be saying yes/no to evolution, and I don't understand
his position; but ID as a movement I think is defined as I previously
just wrote.

 What I wrote below indicates a strong belief in evolution, only a
version that is guided by God... not simply depending on chance and
natural selection to create something new and beautiful in DNA. So
ID'ers, as I know them, would reject point 3 and say God made special
corrections.

 Example: Behe's "mousetrap." Made as a unit by God's special power or
did it evolve? ID says it is made special and it couldn't have evolved.
I accept God directed the evolution of it.

________________________________

From: philtill@aol.com [mailto:philtill@aol.com
<mailto:philtill@aol.com?> ]
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 5:34 PM
To: Dehler, Bernie
Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] Has a Christian Evolutionist written this yet?

Bernie,

this is probably a very accurate description of Behe and many other
IDers. I'm curious to know what you think is different about the TE of
those IDers who are TE.

Phil

-----Original Message-----
From: Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Sent: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 7:03 pm
Subject: [asa] Has a Christian Evolutionist written this yet?

Hi all-
 
 Does anyone know of a book that someone has written that basically
explains that God uses evolution as his design means? I mean, that God
is actively engaged in messing with DNA code as a programmer writing
computer code, not simply just starting it all off at the big bang, as
Howard Van Till would say. I'm thinking of a combination of Intelligent
Design (not ID as it is now) with Evolution. Basically, the conclusion
is drawn from:
 
1. Evolution is too unlikely as to have happened naturally (ex.
anthropic principle & origin of life mysteries).
2. Genome evidence shows evolution happened (ex. pseudogenes).
3. Therefore, evolution happened supernaturally.
 
 I would call the position "Christian Evolution," and a follower a
"Christian Evolutionist." It is the Christian faith combined with
evolution... I hope that isn't syncretistic.
 
 Atheists may say that "evolution is an unguided process of creating
more complex life-forms from simpler," but the Christian Evolutionist
can say it is the "guided" process. Then a tough question would be "if
God is guiding it, then why is there so much disease and bad genes?"
Good one.
 
 
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Received on Wed Dec 19 12:31:01 2007