Re: [asa] Behe's mousetrap

As far as I can tell, Behe hasn't stated how he thought God might overcome an improbability in biology.  His only point was that he didn't think everything in biology could evolve in a sequence of single point mutations and therefore he didn't think these things would evolve unless there was _some_ kind of divine intervention.  But what form that divine intervention might take, Behe never said.  He has said, however, that he believes living creatures have all evolved.

Phil

-----Original Message-----
From: Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Sent: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 12:26 pm
Subject: [asa] Behe's mousetrap

About Behe and the mousetrap… is Behe saying God created the entire mousetrap through evolution, or God did a “poof” and there it was, appearing as a system all at once? I thought Behe’s argument is that evolution can’t explain the mousetrap, that it can’t come into being piece-wise in many small steps (therefore, it came into existence by “poof”).  Am I wrong?  In other words, how exactly is Behe saying the mouse-trap, that is the flagellum motor, came into being?

Through God-guided evolution.

Special creation by God with all parts at once.

From: philtill@aol.com [mailto:philtill@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:55 PM
To: Dehler, Bernie
Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] Has a Christian Evolutionist written this yet?

Hi Bernie,

I think you have over-generalized what IDers are trying to disprove.  Some IDers indeed want to disprove evolution, but other IDers like Behe only want to disprove the idea that evolution is sufficient to explain everything without God's involvement.  He thinks the "mousetrap-like" structures required God's direction to overcome the improbabilities and make them evolve.  The TEs among the IDers have not been outspoken about their position perhaps because they were trying to include the YEC's into their big-tent to fight against philosophical naturalism.

For the record, I think ID has adopted invalid methods and will therefore always be a failure.  I believe what the Bible says, that God hides from the wise and reveals himself to the humble.  ID seems to think we can flush God out from hiding by using advanced biomolecular arguments.  The poor humble slobs who can't understand gene sequencing are at a disadvantage.  They can't apprehend God's existence as well as the wise biomolecular scientists can when guided by the principles of ID.  So if ID is correct, then the bible must be false.  To the contrary, I believe God has not made the kind of universe that forces His existence upon us through bare science alone, although with faith and repentence we may truly apprehend His beauty in science.

Phil

-----Original Message-----
From: Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Sent: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 2:32 pm
Subject: RE: [asa] Has a Christian Evolutionist written this yet?

Hi Phil-

 Here’s my understanding.  ID has a program and main thrust called “teach the controversy.”  I have their book “Exploring Evolution.”  I assume that is their main vehicle.

 From what I can tell, ID teaches nothing positively.  What they do is try to bring up arguments as to why evolution (on the macro scale) could not have happened.  Therefore, they are not evolutionists.  Behe is strange—seems to be saying yes/no to evolution, and I don’t understand his position; but ID as a movement I think is defined as I previously just wrote.

 What I wrote below indicates a strong belief in evolution, only a version that is guided by God… not simply depending on chance and natural selection to create something new and beautiful in DNA. So ID’ers, as I know them, would reject point 3 and say God made special corrections.

 Example: Behe’s “mousetrap.”  Made as a unit by God’s special power or did it evolve? ID says it is made special and it couldn’t have evolved.  I accept God directed the evolution of it.

From: philtill@aol.com [mailto:philtill@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 5:34 PM
To: Dehler, Bernie
Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] Has a Christian Evolutionist written this yet?

Bernie,

this is probably a very accurate description of Behe and many other IDers.  I'm curious to know what you think is different about the TE of those IDers who are TE.

Phil

-----Original Message-----
From: Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Sent: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 7:03 pm
Subject: [asa] Has a Christian Evolutionist written this yet?

Hi all-

 Does anyone know of a book that someone has written that basically

explains that God uses evolution as his design means?  I mean, that God

is actively engaged in messing with DNA code as a programmer writing

computer code, not simply just starting it all off at the big bang, as

Howard Van Till would say.  I'm thinking of a combination of Intelligent

Design (not ID as it is now) with Evolution.  Basically, the conclusion

is drawn from:

1. Evolution is too unlikely as to have happened naturally (ex.

anthropic principle & origin of life mysteries).

2. Genome evidence shows evolution happened (ex. pseudogenes).

3. Therefore, evolution happened supernaturally.

 I would call the position "Christian Evolution," and a follower a

"Christian Evolutionist."  It is the Christian faith combined with

evolution... I hope that isn't syncretistic.

 Atheists may say that "evolution is an unguided process of creating

more complex life-forms from simpler," but the Christian Evolutionist

can say it is the "guided" process.  Then a tough question would be "if

God is guiding it, then why is there so much disease and bad genes?"

Good one.

To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with

"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.

size=2 width="100%" align=center>

More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail!

size=2 width="100%" align=center>

More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail!

________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com

To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
Received on Thu Dec 20 01:32:53 2007