Re: [asa] Origins: Francis Collins and ID

This is a position of too much radical doubt. From what I know there is a
reasonable understanding of the history of the universe over the last n
billion years (exactly what the value of n thereis some dispute( On top of
that we have the more recent history of this planet over the last 4.5
billion years. The historical order is unquestionable but when I adopt
radical doubt the dates could be out by a factor of ten at the most. (Many
radiometricians would scream at me for that !)

By mentioning the flagellum Don was pointing out that the appeal of an
intelligent designer for that and not for other things is clearly
godofthegaps. God created both the flagellum and the totally undesigned
glacial moraine I live on!!

We need to be more precise in what we know and what we dont. The rough order
and age of the history of the universe is one thing we do know.

Michael

--- Original Message -----
From: "Alexanian, Moorad" <alexanian@uncw.edu>
To: "Don Nield" <d.nield@auckland.ac.nz>; "IW" <iaincw@hushmail.com>
Cc: <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 5:43 AM
Subject: RE: [asa] Origins: Francis Collins and ID

> We are not sure of the actual historical development of the universe.
> However, God must have created from the outset all that is possible and
> all that actually occurred. This includes not only E. coli flagellum, but
> also even Isaac Newton, Max Planck, you, and me.
>
>
>
> Moorad
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu on behalf of Don Nield
> Sent: Wed 12/5/2007 9:33 PM
> To: IW
> Cc: asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: Re: [asa] Origins: Francis Collins and ID
>
>
>
> It is true that if God created the universe then he certainly created
> the E. coli flagellum. But one cannot argue in the reverse direction.
> In particular one cannot properly argue, as ID proponents do, that that
> an explanation of the origin of the E. coli flagellum requires an
> intelligent designer. The ID argument is essentially one of the "God of
> the gaps" type.
> Don
>
> IW wrote:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 07:16:44 +0900 Don Nield
>> <d.nield@auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
>>
>>> My answer to Iain is that a "gap argument" terminology as
>>> introduced by
>>> Coulson applies to gaps that can be filled in as our scientific
>>> knowledge increases.
>>>
>>
>> I apologize. I erred by mentioning the gap theory in such a way as
>> to imply a link to what I was saying. I mentioned that as a jump
>> off to what I wanted to say and did not mean my statements to be a
>> direct argument for gap theory.
>>
>> An all or nothing argument is completely
>>
>>> different.
>>> Saying that God created the whole universe is a statement at a
>>> different
>>> level from saying that God created the E. coli flagellum.
>>> Don
>>>
>>
>> ummm...how? If God created the whole universe then I assume he
>> created E. coli.
>>
>> IW
>>
>
>
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Received on Thu Dec 6 11:18:45 2007