RE: [asa] Natural theology

George,

With all due respect, I feel this is devolving to the irrational. Yes, I
think it is reasonable to see God's design in nature and that be a testimony
to Him and I think that it is a reasonable interpretation of the passage in
Romans and I think it reasonable for us to use the powers of reason He gave
us to know Him and His creation. But that doesn't mean I started with
anything preconceived any more than you did. And I don't think that equates
to idolatry. I think that charge is bordering on the absurd. And it could
cut both ways as well.

In contrast you seem to be arguing that we really can't know anything and
everything except science is idolatry. I admit I may not be following some
of the deeper nuances of your arguments but I think we are still
disconnecting on the fundamental premises.

Thanks

John

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of George Murphy
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 8:38 PM
To: John Walley; mlucid@aol.com; asa@calvin.edu; 'Janice Matchett'
Subject: Re: [asa] Natural theology

"The only reasonable conclusion" - now it's on the table! God is to be
subjected to our "reasonable" criteria. N.B., this is not a matter of
drawing conclusions from scripture by rational exegesis or from the natural
world by rational scientific study, both of which are legitimate activities,
but of starting with criteria which we think it "reasonable" for God to
obey. It is forcing God into our box - or, in a word, another form of
idolatry.

In reality, Romans 1 says that the evidence for God in nature functions to
make them (the same "them" to whom this evidence is presented) "without
excuse." The notion that it is "similar to the witness of the Holy Spirit
in the church age" is utterly without foundation. Yes, the Spirit will
condemn sin (Jn.16:8-9) but most important will testify to Christ (Jn.15:26,
I Cor.12:3 &c.) Does the bacterial flagellum point to Christ?

& the fact that people without God's historical revelation are "without
excuse" for their failure to recognize the true God does not strictly imply
that God condemns them. After Paul had appealed to the Athenians'
unfocussed sense of God & rather gently rebuked them for their idolatry, he
said, "While God has overlooked the times of human ignorance, he now
commands all people everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30). This provides at
least an entree to dealing with the question of the status of people in
cultures to whom the gospel has never been brought, such as ancient native
Americans. It does not seem to have any relevance to the ID debate,
scientism, metaphysical naturalism &c in the west.

Shalom
George
http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/

----- Original Message -----

From: John Walley <mailto:john_walley@yahoo.com>

To: 'George Murphy' <mailto:gmurphy@raex.com> ; mlucid@aol.com ;
asa@calvin.edu ; 'Janice <mailto:janmatch@earthlink.net> Matchett'

Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 5:51 PM

Subject: RE: [asa] Natural theology

But this gets back to Randy's obvious question asked earlier. How could the
remote inhabitants of far away places before NT missionaries reached them
possibly read these books in the right order?

I think the only reasonable conclusion is that God intended His natural
revelation to be a universal and independent witness for Him in the OT era,
similar to the witness of the Holy Spirit in the church age.

John

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of George Murphy
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 5:41 PM
To: mlucid@aol.com; asa@calvin.edu; Janice Matchett
Subject: Re: [asa] Natural theology

The 2 books model is OK but it's important to read them in the right order.
Otherwise you're in the position of someone reading The Two Towers before
The Fellowship of the Ring: You won't know who the characters are & will
get confused about what's going on. My PSCF article "Reading God's Two
Books" at http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2006/PSCF3-06Murphy.pdf may be of
interest here.

Shalom
George
http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/

----- Original Message -----

From: Janice Matchett <mailto:janmatch@earthlink.net>

To: mlucid@aol.com ; asa@calvin.edu

Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 3:59 PM

Subject: Re: [asa] Natural theology

At 03:42 PM 11/2/2007, mlucid@aol.com wrote:

Yeah, I believe I'm a two-booker, myself, Christine. -Mike (Friend of ASA)

@ Me too.

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Received on Fri Nov 2 21:57:46 2007