Re: [asa] Does ASA believe in Adam and Eve?

Below I said "Glenn" but I meant "Dick".
 
I agree with Dick in seeing Seth as neolithic, but I don't believe the historical connection can be taken back to Adam. I see Adam as representing all humanity, and therefore he is a pre-historic figure. The break occurs between Adam and Seth, judging from the change in literary features at that point.
 
Phil
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: philtill@aol.com
To: gmurphy@raex.com; asa@calvin.edu
Sent: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 7:51 PM
Subject: Re: [asa] Does ASA believe in Adam and Eve?

I would like to propose that Glenn is correct all the way back to Seth, but not earlier. If you look at the text and see how far back to the mundane factoids appear in the text, they only go back as far as Seth. (Example: how old was Jared when he fathered Methuselah.) That implies that the author was working with pre-existing historical data when he composed the text from Seth on forward in time. But nothing prior to Seth contains any mundane details, and so it seems that this was written by direct inspiration without the use of any data handed as historical records.
 
Two objections:
 
1. The line of Cain contains mundane details. Answer: it does not. The names are parallel to the names in Seth's line (and are distorted versions of them) in order to make a theological point. (Mahalelel = praised of God; Mehujael = cursed of God.) Cain's line does not contain the mundane list of birth and death ages that Seth's line contains. The things that we do find in Cain's line are sweeping, anthropological statements about the invention of city-building, metallurgy, pastoral nomadism, etc. The quote spoken by Cain's Lamech is a contrast to the quotation by Seth's Lamech to show how different they were spiritually, to illustrate the outworking of the curse.
 
2. The four rivers in Genesis 2 are mundane details. This may be true, but I'm not sure it rises to the level of proving that the whole chapter is an historical record rather than a directly inspired account.
 
If this proposal is true, then it tells us that Seth's historical milieu was the neolithic, and that the Bible tells us nothing about the timing for Adam.
 
Phil
 
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: gmurphy@raex.com
To: dickfischer@verizon.net; asa@calvin.edu
Sent: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: [asa] Does ASA believe in Adam and Eve?

So when Israelites said "all the living" they meant "all Israelites." Some of them may have been very inward looking but I don't think to that extent!
 
And, as I noted in a ppost to which Dick hasn't yet replied: "The ancestor of the "covenant race" (to the extent that that's a valid concept) is Abraham. Accepting the validity of Genesis as an historical account, there are many other peoples decended from Noah, who of course is a descendant of Adam - see chapter 10."
 
Dick does the same kind of thing that Glenn does - claim that an historical reading of Genesis is going to be maintained & then bob & weave to try to fit modern scientific and historical data into it. The notion that "mother of all the living" doesn't mean what it clearly does mean is one example. In spite of that, Dick's reading is less extravagant than Glenn's because it doesn't require, z.B., that ~ 5Myr be fitted into Gen.10-11. But it's still unjustified.
 
Orthodox Christianity has always held - against Marcion & others - that the OT is scripture for Christians. Precisely one of the points that Paul makes in Romans 9-11
is that Gentile Christians are grafted onto Israel, & thus their "mail" becomes ours. Or as Paul says about another piece of the story of Israel in I Cor.10, "they were written down to instruct us, on whom the ends of the ages have come."

 
Shalom
George
http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/
----- Original Message -----
From: Dick Fischer
To: ASA
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 11:18 AM
Subject: RE: [asa] Does ASA believe in Adam and Eve?

Eve was the mother, as Adam was the father of the Israelites for whom Genesis was written and to whom it was directed. We Christians are free to read their mail so to speak, but it was not written initially for us. It is this tendency we have to read ourselves into Jewish history that continues to get us into hermeneutical holes. As far back as I can go is one great grandfather named Pfizer (changed to “Fisher” at Ellis Island) who was a captain in the Prussian Army, or so I’ve been told. Who his wife was I have no idea. But the Israelites had the benefit of genealogical records that reached all the way back to their earliest ancestor – Adam.
 
Dick Fischer
Dick Fischer, Genesis Proclaimed Association
Finding Harmony in Bible, Science, and History
www.genesisproclaimed.org
 
-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of George Murphy
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 10:15 PM
To: Bill Hamilton; asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] Does ASA believe in Adam and Eve?
 
How was Adam's wife "the mother of all living" (Gen.3:20) if Adam wasn't the father of all living?
 
Shalom
George
http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Hamilton
To: Gregory Arago ; asa@calvin.edu
Cc: Glenn Morton
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 6:22 PM
Subject: Re: [asa] Does ASA believe in Adam and Eve?
 
The ASA statement of faith references the historic Christian creeds, which don't, as far as I know, explicitly require a belief in Adam and Eve. So strictly speaking, I suppose you could be an ASA member without believing in Adam and Eve. Having said that, I will state that _I_ believe that there were specific persons Adam and Eve. In spite of the objections raised by Glenn, I like Dick Fischer's view that Adam lived in Mesopotamia about 7000 years ago. For reference, the objections raised by Glenn include

1. Under Dick's scenario we are not all descended from Adam. Glenn sees that view as an excuse for racism. I don't, because of the many laws, commandments etc. given throughout Scripture detailing how we are to treat our fellow human beings

2. Under Dick's scenario it's difficult to understand how a flood approaching the description of Genesis could have occurred (in southern Mesopotamia). I admit this is a difficulty, but that doesn't justify throwing out Dick's scenario
 
Bill Hamilton
William E. Hamilton, Jr., Ph.D.
248.652.4148 (home) 248.821.8156 (mobile)
"...If God is for us, who is against us?" Rom 8:31
 
----- Original Message ----
From: Gregory Arago <gregoryarago@yahoo.ca>
To: asa@calvin.edu
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 7:49:07 AM
Subject: [asa] Does ASA believe in Adam and Eve?
It is well known that ASA once issued an unambiguous statement: ‘We believe in creation!’ Would ASA be willing to follow that important, courageous clarification up with a further statement: ‘We believe in Adam and Eve!’? This is one of my main questions for all theistic evolutionists (TE's).
 
G. Arago
 
 
 

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Received on Thu Mar 22 10:29:42 2007