The YEC claim of dinosaurs extant with man based on Job 40 I have always
thought was one of the dumbest examples of an overly literalistic
hermeneutic. How many hundreds of web sites an YEC articles point to
the Bohemoth in Job 40 as evidence of post-flood dinosaurs because the
Behemoth "moveth his tail like a cedar" and has "bones like bars of
iron." See http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v15/i2/behemoth.asp for
an over the top analysis. Do they not ever read chapter 41? The
article linked goes to great lengths to discover the nature of the
Behemoth and very briefly suggests that the Leviathan too much represent
a real and literally described animal. But I've seen no such detailed
analysis of Chapter 41 in which the Leviathan is clearly described as
breathing fire "His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his
mouth" (41:21). Where is the speculation about animals that once had
fires contained in their belly? When I have brought this chapter to
the attention of YEC friends of mine who think the behemoth is a
dinosaur I have yet to find one of them that has enough
faith/consistency in their system of interpretation to say they believe
that there were dragons that breathed real fire. I guess even they know
enough biology to know that this would be ridiculous.
This possibility that ancient peoples interpreted the fossils that they
saw around them opens up a new interpretation of this text. Rather than
the typical suggestion that the behemoth and leviathan represented large
land and sea creatures (albeit ones that were alive such as
hippos/elephants and various sea critters) but with the author of job
taking poetic license in describing their features, I think it is
possible that people at the time of the writing of Job had developed
interpretations of the great fossils in the region. These
interpretations were more than just myths but based on what were truly
believed to be real creatures that although not actually seen in the
flesh they had the remains as proof of their existance. The author of
Job is simply saying that God is greater than these creatures and
describes their features as the were believed to be.
Joel
--------------------------------------------------------
Dr. R. Joel Duff
Associate Professor of Biology
185 ASEC, Department of Biology
University of Akron
Akron OH 44325-3908
rjduff@uakron.edu
---------------------------------------------------------
________________________________
From: George Murphy [mailto:gmurphy@raex.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 3:24 PM
To: donperrett@theology-perspectives.net; Duff,Robert Joel
Cc: ASA Discussions
Subject: Re: [asa] dinos
The possibility which Joel pointed out, that stories about dragons &c
arose from observations of fossils is fascinating - especially if it's
true! Of course that's very different from the YEC claim that those
stories arose from observations of extant dinosaurs.
In your 1st sentence below you refer to the idea that ancient peoples
recognized the possibility of extinction. In the west there is a
tradition extending back to Greece which denied the possibility of
extinction, the philosophical idea of "the great chain of being."
(Arthur O. Lovejoy's book with that title, originally published in the
30s, is a classic discussion.) This was baptized in the idea that God
as the perfect creator would not allow any link of this chain, extending
from God himself through angels & humans down to the lowest creature,
although there is no biblical support at all for such a claim. This
idea wasn't overcome until the 19th century, & even at that lies behind
such things as Conan Doyle's "lost world" in which there are still
living dinosaurs hidden somewhere. The discovery of extinction was a
shock to the western intellectual tradition which had to be absorbed
before the shock of evolution through a process of natural selection in
which extinction played a role could be dealt with. Loren Eiseley's
Essay "How Death Became Natural" (in The Firmament of Time) is good on
this.
Shalom
George
http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Perrett <mailto:donperrett@theology-perspectives.net>
To: 'Duff,Robert Joel' <mailto:rjduff@uakron.edu>
Cc: ASA Discussions <mailto:asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 2:34 PM
Subject: RE: [asa] dinos
The idea that ancient peoples would have recognized the
possibility of extinct animals, and extinction in general, seems
apparent to me. Some may have thought the bones (not sure they
understood fossilization) were of animals that either no longer existed
or that existed in far off exotic lands. Either way there is already
enough evidence that fossils were discovered (albeit limited) during
ancient times.
Don
________________________________
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
[mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Duff,Robert Joel
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 1:25 PM
To: donperrett@theology-perspectives.net; burgytwo@juno.com
Cc: ASA Discussions
Subject: RE: [asa] dinos
Don,
I agree with your comment about the possibility of dragon lore
resulting from Pterosaur remains or the like. Up until just a couple
years ago I was under the illusion that man didn't recognize fossils for
what they may be until the middle ages or after. I think I got this
impression from Rudwicks classic book on fossils. I just read a book
that really opened up my eyes to seeing the importance of fossils an
ancient civilizations. The book The First Fossil Hunters by Adrienne
Mayor contains some fascinating accounts and speculations about
paleontology in the Greek and roman times. Mayor, I believe, makes an
effective case that the fantastic creatures of classical mythology
resulted from the imaginations of people who found bones of mammoths and
other large megafauna. These bones were attributed to long dead heroes
and were collected and treated as relics of importance.
Especially relevant is the legend of the griffins in which these
dragon-like creatures where said to guard gold deposits in the east.
Mayor makes a nice case for this legend to have come about via the
stories of travelers who came by skeletons of protoceretops which are
common in the southern Gobi desert. It seems likely that seeing these
great fully articulated skeletons that it would be assumed that they
represented dragons that had died but that there must be others that yet
remained alive.
Joel
-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu on behalf of Don Perrett
Sent: Tue 1/9/2007 5:59 PM
To: burgytwo@juno.com
Cc: ASA Discussions
Subject: RE: [asa] dinos
Normally I don't get into the YEC/ID discussions. HOWEVER
IMHO I feel that more likely than a direct descendancy from
Noah, which
cannot account for Native Americans being here before the flood,
I believe
it is more likely that the flood stories from around the world
are in
reference to past human experiences (tales) of the floods which
likely
occurred at the end of the last ice age which would have been
seen globally
but would not have been global. Being that it would more likely
be at a
more recent time, it may have been as a result of mountain
glaciers melting
rapidly and not the larger glaciers that may have cut the Grand
Canyon for
example. Any area in a low land near mountains with remaining
ice age
glacier caps would have experience localized (regional)
flooding.
As for the flying dinos, is it not likely that the tales may
have originated
from hypotheses drawn from those that found Ptero remains?
Don
-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
[mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of burgytwo@juno.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 3:35 PM
To: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: [asa] dinos
AIG recently tossed out the following:
Q: Were dragons just mythological?
A: You may have heard about the flood legends that have come
down from many
different people groups around the world, many of which are very
similar to
the Bible's account of Noah's Flood.
For instance, the Australian Aborigines, before they even met
missionaries,
had stories about a global flood. The stories included many
similarities to
the Bible's account. The same can be said of the legends of the
American
Indians, Fijians, Eskimos, and other cultures all around the
world.
The reason for this is that these people are all descendants of
Noah.
They handed down the story of the Flood to succeeding
generations. The
stories changed over the years, but the similarities to the
Bible are still
there.
The same sort of thing likely happened with dragon legends.
These stories
are based on real encounters with real beasts. The stories exist
all over
the world, handed down from generation to generation.
What were the dragons? When you read about the descriptions of
many of these
dragons in the old history books, you will see that they fit
with many of
the descriptions we have today of dinosaurs.
Yes, dragons were probably dinosaurs!
-----------------------------------------------------------
Now I'm going to confess that the first time I saw this
argument, it argued
(for me) somewhat persuasively that -- perhaps -- dinos and
humanity existed
at the same 6time. The stories in the book of Job reinforced
this. Then when
I saw dino tracks in a river in San Rose
(?) Texas, the credibility increased. Those tracks "looked"
fresh -- not 100
MY old. (They still do).
So to a limited extent I stll hold a small chance (.01% perhaps)
that dinos
did survive into recent times.
Of course, that possibility has nothing to do with the YEC view,
I think.
Should a living T Rex be found in -- say -- S America, it WOULD
be
interesting. I keep hoping ... .
Burgy
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Received on Wed Jan 10 16:40:33 2007
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