RE: [asa] dinos

Not that I believe in fire-breathing dragons, but since some animals produce
methane (as discussed in the cow thread) is it possible that a species could
produce enough methane to allow for this, assuming they had a way of
sparking the gas? One good belch and a small spark maybe?
 
Don P

  _____

From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of Duff,Robert Joel
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 4:40 PM
To: George Murphy; donperrett@theology-perspectives.net
Cc: ASA Discussions
Subject: RE: [asa] dinos

The YEC claim of dinosaurs extant with man based on Job 40 I have always
thought was one of the dumbest examples of an overly literalistic
hermeneutic. How many hundreds of web sites an YEC articles point to the
Bohemoth in Job 40 as evidence of post-flood dinosaurs because the Behemoth
"moveth his tail like a cedar" and has "bones like bars of iron." See
http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v15/i2/behemoth.asp for an over the top
analysis. Do they not ever read chapter 41? The article linked goes to
great lengths to discover the nature of the Behemoth and very briefly
suggests that the Leviathan too much represent a real and literally
described animal. But I've seen no such detailed analysis of Chapter 41 in
which the Leviathan is clearly described as breathing fire "His breath
kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth" (41:21). Where is the
speculation about animals that once had fires contained in their belly?
When I have brought this chapter to the attention of YEC friends of mine who
think the behemoth is a dinosaur I have yet to find one of them that has
enough faith/consistency in their system of interpretation to say they
believe that there were dragons that breathed real fire. I guess even they
know enough biology to know that this would be ridiculous.

This possibility that ancient peoples interpreted the fossils that they saw
around them opens up a new interpretation of this text. Rather than the
typical suggestion that the behemoth and leviathan represented large land
and sea creatures (albeit ones that were alive such as hippos/elephants and
various sea critters) but with the author of job taking poetic license in
describing their features, I think it is possible that people at the time of
the writing of Job had developed interpretations of the great fossils in the
region. These interpretations were more than just myths but based on what
were truly believed to be real creatures that although not actually seen in
the flesh they had the remains as proof of their existance. The author of
Job is simply saying that God is greater than these creatures and describes
their features as the were believed to be.

Joel

--------------------------------------------------------
Dr. R. Joel Duff

Associate Professor of Biology

185 ASEC, Department of Biology

University of Akron

Akron OH 44325-3908

rjduff@uakron.edu

---------------------------------------------------------

  _____

From: George Murphy [mailto:gmurphy@raex.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 3:24 PM
To: donperrett@theology-perspectives.net; Duff,Robert Joel
Cc: ASA Discussions
Subject: Re: [asa] dinos

The possibility which Joel pointed out, that stories about dragons &c arose
from observations of fossils is fascinating - especially if it's true! Of
course that's very different from the YEC claim that those stories arose
from observations of extant dinosaurs.

In your 1st sentence below you refer to the idea that ancient peoples
recognized the possibility of extinction. In the west there is a tradition
extending back to Greece which denied the possibility of extinction, the
philosophical idea of "the great chain of being." (Arthur O. Lovejoy's book
with that title, originally published in the 30s, is a classic discussion.)
This was baptized in the idea that God as the perfect creator would not
allow any link of this chain, extending from God himself through angels &
humans down to the lowest creature, although there is no biblical support at
all for such a claim. This idea wasn't overcome until the 19th century, &
even at that lies behind such things as Conan Doyle's "lost world" in which
there are still living dinosaurs hidden somewhere. The discovery of
extinction was a shock to the western intellectual tradition which had to be
absorbed before the shock of evolution through a process of natural
selection in which extinction played a role could be dealt with. Loren
Eiseley's Essay "How Death Became Natural" (in The Firmament of Time) is
good on this.

Shalom
George
http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/

----- Original Message -----

From: Don Perrett <mailto:donperrett@theology-perspectives.net>

To: 'Duff,Robert Joel' <mailto:rjduff@uakron.edu>

Cc: ASA Discussions <mailto:asa@calvin.edu>

Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 2:34 PM

Subject: RE: [asa] dinos

The idea that ancient peoples would have recognized the possibility of
extinct animals, and extinction in general, seems apparent to me. Some may
have thought the bones (not sure they understood fossilization) were of
animals that either no longer existed or that existed in far off exotic
lands. Either way there is already enough evidence that fossils were
discovered (albeit limited) during ancient times.

Don

  _____

From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of Duff,Robert Joel
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 1:25 PM
To: donperrett@theology-perspectives.net; burgytwo@juno.com
Cc: ASA Discussions
Subject: RE: [asa] dinos

Don,
I agree with your comment about the possibility of dragon lore resulting
from Pterosaur remains or the like. Up until just a couple years ago I was
under the illusion that man didn't recognize fossils for what they may be
until the middle ages or after. I think I got this impression from Rudwicks
classic book on fossils. I just read a book that really opened up my eyes
to seeing the importance of fossils an ancient civilizations. The book The
First Fossil Hunters by Adrienne Mayor contains some fascinating accounts
and speculations about paleontology in the Greek and roman times. Mayor, I
believe, makes an effective case that the fantastic creatures of classical
mythology resulted from the imaginations of people who found bones of
mammoths and other large megafauna. These bones were attributed to long
dead heroes and were collected and treated as relics of importance.

Especially relevant is the legend of the griffins in which these dragon-like
creatures where said to guard gold deposits in the east. Mayor makes a nice
case for this legend to have come about via the stories of travelers who
came by skeletons of protoceretops which are common in the southern Gobi
desert. It seems likely that seeing these great fully articulated skeletons
that it would be assumed that they represented dragons that had died but
that there must be others that yet remained alive.
Joel

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu on behalf of Don Perrett
Sent: Tue 1/9/2007 5:59 PM
To: burgytwo@juno.com
Cc: ASA Discussions
Subject: RE: [asa] dinos

Normally I don't get into the YEC/ID discussions. HOWEVER

IMHO I feel that more likely than a direct descendancy from Noah, which
cannot account for Native Americans being here before the flood, I believe
it is more likely that the flood stories from around the world are in
reference to past human experiences (tales) of the floods which likely
occurred at the end of the last ice age which would have been seen globally
but would not have been global. Being that it would more likely be at a
more recent time, it may have been as a result of mountain glaciers melting
rapidly and not the larger glaciers that may have cut the Grand Canyon for
example. Any area in a low land near mountains with remaining ice age
glacier caps would have experience localized (regional) flooding.

As for the flying dinos, is it not likely that the tales may have originated
from hypotheses drawn from those that found Ptero remains?

Don

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of burgytwo@juno.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 3:35 PM
To: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: [asa] dinos

AIG recently tossed out the following:

Q: Were dragons just mythological?

A: You may have heard about the flood legends that have come down from many
different people groups around the world, many of which are very similar to
the Bible's account of Noah's Flood.

For instance, the Australian Aborigines, before they even met missionaries,
had stories about a global flood. The stories included many similarities to
the Bible's account. The same can be said of the legends of the American
Indians, Fijians, Eskimos, and other cultures all around the world.

The reason for this is that these people are all descendants of Noah.
They handed down the story of the Flood to succeeding generations. The
stories changed over the years, but the similarities to the Bible are still
there.

The same sort of thing likely happened with dragon legends. These stories
are based on real encounters with real beasts. The stories exist all over
the world, handed down from generation to generation.

What were the dragons? When you read about the descriptions of many of these
dragons in the old history books, you will see that they fit with many of
the descriptions we have today of dinosaurs.

Yes, dragons were probably dinosaurs!

-----------------------------------------------------------

Now I'm going to confess that the first time I saw this argument, it argued
(for me) somewhat persuasively that -- perhaps -- dinos and humanity existed
at the same 6time. The stories in the book of Job reinforced this. Then when
I saw dino tracks in a river in San Rose
(?) Texas, the credibility increased. Those tracks "looked" fresh -- not 100
MY old. (They still do).

So to a limited extent I stll hold a small chance (.01% perhaps) that dinos
did survive into recent times.

Of course, that possibility has nothing to do with the YEC view, I think.
Should a living T Rex be found in -- say -- S America, it WOULD be
interesting. I keep hoping ... .

Burgy

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Received on Thu Jan 11 11:02:25 2007