Re: [asa] dinos

RE: [asa] dinosThe possibility which Joel pointed out, that stories about dragons &c arose from observations of fossils is fascinating - especially if it's true! Of course that's very different from the YEC claim that those stories arose from observations of extant dinosaurs.

In your 1st sentence below you refer to the idea that ancient peoples recognized the possibility of extinction. In the west there is a tradition extending back to Greece which denied the possibility of extinction, the philosophical idea of "the great chain of being." (Arthur O. Lovejoy's book with that title, originally published in the 30s, is a classic discussion.) This was baptized in the idea that God as the perfect creator would not allow any link of this chain, extending from God himself through angels & humans down to the lowest creature, although there is no biblical support at all for such a claim. This idea wasn't overcome until the 19th century, & even at that lies behind such things as Conan Doyle's "lost world" in which there are still living dinosaurs hidden somewhere. The discovery of extinction was a shock to the western intellectual tradition which had to be absorbed before the shock of evolution through a process of natural selection in which extinction played a role could be dealt with. Loren Eiseley's Essay "How Death Became Natural" (in The Firmament of Time) is good on this.

Shalom
George
http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Don Perrett
  To: 'Duff,Robert Joel'
  Cc: ASA Discussions
  Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 2:34 PM
  Subject: RE: [asa] dinos

  The idea that ancient peoples would have recognized the possibility of extinct animals, and extinction in general, seems apparent to me. Some may have thought the bones (not sure they understood fossilization) were of animals that either no longer existed or that existed in far off exotic lands. Either way there is already enough evidence that fossils were discovered (albeit limited) during ancient times.

  Don

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Duff,Robert Joel
  Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 1:25 PM
  To: donperrett@theology-perspectives.net; burgytwo@juno.com
  Cc: ASA Discussions
  Subject: RE: [asa] dinos

  Don,
  I agree with your comment about the possibility of dragon lore resulting from Pterosaur remains or the like. Up until just a couple years ago I was under the illusion that man didn't recognize fossils for what they may be until the middle ages or after. I think I got this impression from Rudwicks classic book on fossils. I just read a book that really opened up my eyes to seeing the importance of fossils an ancient civilizations. The book The First Fossil Hunters by Adrienne Mayor contains some fascinating accounts and speculations about paleontology in the Greek and roman times. Mayor, I believe, makes an effective case that the fantastic creatures of classical mythology resulted from the imaginations of people who found bones of mammoths and other large megafauna. These bones were attributed to long dead heroes and were collected and treated as relics of importance.

  Especially relevant is the legend of the griffins in which these dragon-like creatures where said to guard gold deposits in the east. Mayor makes a nice case for this legend to have come about via the stories of travelers who came by skeletons of protoceretops which are common in the southern Gobi desert. It seems likely that seeing these great fully articulated skeletons that it would be assumed that they represented dragons that had died but that there must be others that yet remained alive.
  Joel

  -----Original Message-----
  From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu on behalf of Don Perrett
  Sent: Tue 1/9/2007 5:59 PM
  To: burgytwo@juno.com
  Cc: ASA Discussions
  Subject: RE: [asa] dinos

  Normally I don't get into the YEC/ID discussions. HOWEVER

  IMHO I feel that more likely than a direct descendancy from Noah, which
  cannot account for Native Americans being here before the flood, I believe
  it is more likely that the flood stories from around the world are in
  reference to past human experiences (tales) of the floods which likely
  occurred at the end of the last ice age which would have been seen globally
  but would not have been global. Being that it would more likely be at a
  more recent time, it may have been as a result of mountain glaciers melting
  rapidly and not the larger glaciers that may have cut the Grand Canyon for
  example. Any area in a low land near mountains with remaining ice age
  glacier caps would have experience localized (regional) flooding.

  As for the flying dinos, is it not likely that the tales may have originated
  from hypotheses drawn from those that found Ptero remains?

  Don

  -----Original Message-----
  From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
  Behalf Of burgytwo@juno.com
  Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 3:35 PM
  To: asa@calvin.edu
  Subject: [asa] dinos

  AIG recently tossed out the following:

  Q: Were dragons just mythological?

  A: You may have heard about the flood legends that have come down from many
  different people groups around the world, many of which are very similar to
  the Bible's account of Noah's Flood.

  For instance, the Australian Aborigines, before they even met missionaries,
  had stories about a global flood. The stories included many similarities to
  the Bible's account. The same can be said of the legends of the American
  Indians, Fijians, Eskimos, and other cultures all around the world.

  The reason for this is that these people are all descendants of Noah.
  They handed down the story of the Flood to succeeding generations. The
  stories changed over the years, but the similarities to the Bible are still
  there.

  The same sort of thing likely happened with dragon legends. These stories
  are based on real encounters with real beasts. The stories exist all over
  the world, handed down from generation to generation.

  What were the dragons? When you read about the descriptions of many of these
  dragons in the old history books, you will see that they fit with many of
  the descriptions we have today of dinosaurs.

  Yes, dragons were probably dinosaurs!

  -----------------------------------------------------------

  Now I'm going to confess that the first time I saw this argument, it argued
  (for me) somewhat persuasively that -- perhaps -- dinos and humanity existed
  at the same 6time. The stories in the book of Job reinforced this. Then when
  I saw dino tracks in a river in San Rose
  (?) Texas, the credibility increased. Those tracks "looked" fresh -- not 100
  MY old. (They still do).

  So to a limited extent I stll hold a small chance (.01% perhaps) that dinos
  did survive into recent times.

  Of course, that possibility has nothing to do with the YEC view, I think.
  Should a living T Rex be found in -- say -- S America, it WOULD be
  interesting. I keep hoping ... .

  Burgy

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Received on Wed Jan 10 15:26:01 2007