Re: [asa] Of motes and beams

George,
Were you never surprised - puzzled, even - when you first encountered the
phrase "...evil spirit _from the Lord_..." (1Sam.16:14, 19:9)? One would
suppose it to have been sufficient for the writer to say simply, "An evil
spirit troubled Saul". But, clearly, he was inspired to say more. Is there
not a whiff of profound teaching here? Linking these statements with Job
1:6-12 and Job 2:1-6 we have a surprising but coherent explanation, I
suggest, of things as they really are: Satan - enemy of our souls, the dark
petitioner; God - the Omnipotent, Omniscient and All-Wise arbiter.

Would you not agree, therefore, that these recorded 'minutes' of the
meetings between God and Satan must, logically, be endorsed by the
Christian? And would you not also agree that these accounts establish a
pattern that must have been repeated interminably over the centuries, and
even as we now communicate - its prime aim being the controlled outworking
of God's ultimate purposes?

 You said (in part), "The fact that investigation based upon MN has a great
> deal of success in understanding important aspects of human activity shows
> that it is a very good working hypothesis...".

Yes, but as I hope you would now agree, that perception exists simply by
_God's grace_. It would be foolish to believe that it always _must_ be so
(or even that it always _has been_ so!). For the Christian, MN can never be
a dependable working hypothesis.

You go on to say, "... both your claims are demonstrably false." Please
explain; I'm not aware that you've demonstrated any such thing.

Let me close with some advice from C.S.Lewis: "Do not attempt to water
Christianity down. There must be no pretence that you can have it with the
Supernatural left out. So far as I can see Christianity is precisely the one
religion from which the miraculous cannot be separated. You must frankly
argue for supernaturalism from the very outset." (Christian Apologetics)

Shalom,

Vernon

----- Original Message -----

From: "George Murphy" <gmurphy@raex.com>
To: "Vernon Jenkins" <vernon.jenkins@virgin.net>; "Don Nield"
<d.nield@auckland.ac.nz>
Cc: <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2006 10:54 PM
Subject: Re: [asa] Of motes and beams

> Vernon -
>
> 1) Jesus told many stories. They are all true in the important sense
> that they convey truth about the kingdom of God &c. Whether or not they
> are true in the sense of being accurate historical reports is utterly
> irrelevant. No serious Christian can dismiss stories as necessarily
> untrue.
>
> 2) Whether or not human activity is "immune" from supernatural
> interference is not the question. The fact that investigation based upon
> MN has a great deal of success in understanding important aspects of human
> activity shows that it is a very good working hypothesis & that
> supernatural interference (to be distinguished, of course, from God's
> concurrence with natural processes) is the exception - & in fact a quite
> rare exception.
>
> I.e., both your claims are demostrably false. It would be nice to see you
> admit it when you're wrong. People might take you more seriously if you
> did.
>
> Shalom
> George
> http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Vernon Jenkins" <vernon.jenkins@virgin.net>
> To: "Don Nield" <d.nield@auckland.ac.nz>
> Cc: <asa@calvin.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2006 4:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [asa] Of motes and beams
>
>
>> Hi Don,
>>
>> Thanks for your comments. However, when you state that "The passages are
>> theological stories about Satan.", does that mean you believe them to be
>> untrue? If so, are you not surprised that God has allowed them to appear
>> in His Revealed Word?
>>
>> On the other hand, if by these means it is intended that Christians be
>> taught some of the fundamentals of life in the courts of heaven, you must
>> surely agree that no form of human activity can be considered immune to
>> supernatural interference. In such circumstances MN must cease to exist
>> as a valid working hypothesis.
>>
>> Vernon
>> www.otherbiblecode.com
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Don Nield" <d.nield@auckland.ac.nz>
>> To: "Vernon Jenkins" <vernon.jenkins@virgin.net>
>> Cc: <asa@calvin.edu>
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2006 2:46 AM
>> Subject: Re: [asa] Of motes and beams
>>
>>
>>> Vernon:
>>> The passages are theological stories about Satan. They have nothing to
>>> do with science.
>>> All discussion about God is concerned with the supernatural. But that
>>> has nothing to do with methodological naturalism.
>>> Don
>>>
>>> Vernon Jenkins wrote:
>>>
>>>> Forum,
>>>> I observe that many here are quick to pounce on any perceived weakness
>>>> in the YEC position. But what of their own position as TEs? It appears
>>>> to me that all are prepared to ignore some very fundamental Bible
>>>> teaching. For example, concerning Job 1: 6-12, 2:1-6 and 1Kings
>>>> 22:19-22, I am wondering what the purpose of these precious revelations
>>>> might be if not to refute methodological naturalism - which all here
>>>> appear to accept as a valid basis for practising science. Clearly,
>>>> these extracts suggest that the _natural_ is, and always has been, open
>>>> to supernatural activity - in God's wisdom, and at His discretion.
>>>> It is interesting that Darwin's _goad_, Alfred Russell Wallace
>>>> (undoubtedly, a reliable observer - though not a Christian) was
>>>> convinced of the reality of the supernatural and wrote extensively of
>>>> his first hand experiences of it. Many (including myself) would condemn
>>>> his partiality for the seance - but his desire to learn, surely, cannot
>>>> be faulted. On the other hand, our interest in the supernatural, as
>>>> Christians, appears to begin and end with the resurrection. Is this
>>>> really adequate for those who earnestly seek truth?
>>>> Vernon
>>>> www.otherbiblecode.com <http://www.otherbiblecode.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
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Received on Wed Jul 12 17:33:20 2006