RE: Money is a tool. A Message to Redistributionists

"Donald Perrett (E-mail)" <donperrett@theology-perspectives.net> wrote: No one that I've seen posting here has denied the Jubilee. The issue isn't the Jubilee, it is the definition of it and how it is implemented.

PvM: The Bible seems quite clear about what it is and how it should be implemented.

If you have decided it is better to steal from one to give to another then it is you who are the oppressor.

PvM: How did you reach this conclusion?

If you educate and encourage others to redistribute their wealth to those in need then you who are doing what Jesus did. Follow Christ's ways not man's. The link you provided is great propagana.

PvM: What do you mean by great propaganda? The link has some excellent points about the concept of the Jubilee as well as the impact of debt on poverty, social equality etc etc.

About as good as any corporate ad on tv today. And unfortunately no better for man than are the consumerist mentalities dominating capitalism today. Invest and save so that when the time comes you have something to give someone else in need. Or if you are so into redistribution, please forward any un-needed wealth my way, odds are I make far less than you. Don't worry I won't force you, I'm a Christian who believes in free will. :)

PvM: You seem to be missing my points here. I understand that the concept of the Jubilee may make you uncomfortable but should Christians not step in Christ's footsteps and be proud to implement the Jubilee?
Why should we support tax cuts for the rich when the gap between rich and poor is increasing? Such only serves to increase the inequality between people. Why should we accept that US workers are treated so poorly when they are instrumental in contributing to the riches of a few in the US?
I see how the Jubilee could rectify many of these problems which the Bible many thousands of years ago identified as real.
You yourself may consider yourself poor compared to some and yet you are rich compared to many others. I think there are some interesting lessons the Bible is teaching us that some may be avoiding or missing.
Perhaps the link I provided was wrong in some aspects of the Jubilee but I see them making at least an honest attempt to interpret and apply God's teachings.

Don P

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]On
Behalf Of Pim van Meurs
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 13:07
Cc: American Science Association
Subject: Re: Money is a tool. A Message to Redistributionists

Matt "Fritz" Bergin wrote:

> This was my argument at the begining of the debate. I think we need to
> look individually at each person and actually get out there and
> interact with them because it's my view that many poor have problems
> that need solutions that do not have their roots in money and
> therefore money will not solve it. You can see it on TV all the time.
> There was a show on TV where these two guys go around and talk to
> people on the street and get to know them and their problems then
> offer to give them help for addictions, ect. With a socialist system
> we would just tell everyone that your problem is money and leave it at
> that. I didn't see Jesus tossing a few coins to the people that he
> came to that were in need and telling them that should solve
> everything. It seems like a very simple and cold solution to a problem
> that I think is complex and different for each person.

This is an oversimplistic view of reality. I have no idea where you got
the idea that a 'socialist system would tell everyone that your problem
is money and leave it at that'. This sounds much like a strawman argument.
What I am trying to point out is that the Jubilee (redistribution of
land and wealth) as outlined in the Bible would go a long way towards
resolving many of the problems. Would it resolve all problems? Of course
not but good education, a solid family, regular and predictable meals
are all an essential part of giving people equal opportunities to succeed.

I am fascinated that Jubilee economics seem to have found a growing
audience
(http://www.jubilee4justice.org/assets/PDF/economics_in_brief.pdf). They
rightly point out that one of the reasons that the Jubilee is not
practiced more widely is because there are strong political and economic
interests involved.
Look for instance at the tax reduction for the rich which seems to go
contrary to these biblical teachings but are easily understood in the
present day political climate of cronie-ism.

I see a powerful message in Christ's words and the old testament which
we as Christians should not forget. Certainly, it seems not very helpful
to reject the Jubilee just because it has some similarities with
socialism/communism.

>
> ~Matt
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Donald Perrett (E-mail)
>
> *To:* 'Pim van Meurs'
> *Cc:* ASA Discussions (E-mail)
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 09, 2006 10:50 AM
> *Subject:* RE: Money is a tool. A Message to Redistributionists
>
> I see the Jubilee occur every month or so. I see it in even
> non-Christian, though American, institutions. People and
> organizations that go out and collect up items and money to help
> the poor. Even if there is no big emergency like 9/11 or Katrina
> we see this on a fairly regular basis in this country. Whether it
> is an ad on TV for Save the Children Fund or some other NPO. Why
> must the Jubliee by stolen and raped by some artificial
> wannabe-human organization known as government. When a person of
> poverty gets help from those in his community, he feels grateful
> that there are those that care for him. When a person gets his
> welfare check and food stamps does he say thank you to the tax
> payers or even the government? Where is the personal human love
> that is expressed in the giving and sharing of the biblical
> jubilee? Dehumanize all you want into a globule of mass
> corruption, but this will not change the condition of the human
> need to be loved and cared for by his fellow man. Only through
> the fellowship gained by the personal sacrifices made by one man
> for the sake of another can peace, love and human kindness be
> increased.
>
> May the Lord work through each of us to increase our brothers
> wealth and dignity
>
> Don P
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
> [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]*On Behalf Of *Pim van Meurs
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 09, 2006 01:01
> *To:* asa@calvin.edu
> *Subject:* Re: Money is a tool. A Message to Redistributionists
>
> Interesting response, but missing the point again. My comment
> is one of wonder why Christians seem to be unwilling to
> implement some biblical teachings while adhering to others. Do
> we as Christians get to chose what part of the Bible we like
> or dislike? Is that your attitude towards the Bible or am I
> missing something?
>
> I am not sure where you got your idea about imposing my
> religious conscience on others, I am merely asking about how
> others interpret the Jubilee and why it seems to be totally
> ignored.
>
> Perhaps it's time for Janice to read more carefully before
> responding? But at least we seem to agree that imposing
> religious belief onto others is the wrong approach.
> The real question for me however is how Christians deal with
> the concept of the Jubilee and why it seems to have been
> mostly ignored? But perhaps my reading of the bible is too
> literal :-)
>
>
Received on Sat Mar 11 02:25:04 2006