RE: Money is a tool. A Message to Redistributionists

  -----Original Message-----
  From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]On
Behalf Of Pim van Meurs
  Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 02:24
  To: asa@calvin.edu
  Subject: RE: Money is a tool. A Message to Redistributionists

  "Donald Perrett (E-mail)" <donperrett@theology-perspectives.net> wrote:
    No one that I've seen posting here has denied the Jubilee. The issue
isn't the Jubilee, it is the definition of it and how it is implemented.

    PvM: The Bible seems quite clear about what it is and how it should be
implemented.

    If you have decided it is better to steal from one to give to another
then it is you who are the oppressor.

    PvM: How did you reach this conclusion?

    [Don Perrett] Simple definition. Taking without permission. I am all
for encouraging people to freely give up that which they do not need.
Redistribution by choice is one thing, redistribution by force is another.

    If you educate and encourage others to redistribute their wealth to
those in need then you who are doing what Jesus did. Follow Christ's ways
not man's. The link you provided is great propagana.

    PvM: What do you mean by great propaganda? The link has some excellent
points about the concept of the Jubilee as well as the impact of debt on
poverty, social equ ality etc etc.

    [Don Perrett]
    Yes, but very little specifics, which is why I called it propoganda.
Where is the impartial information that would allow someone to make their
own choice about whether this economic model would work?

    About as good as any corporate ad on tv today. And unfortunately no
better for man than are the consumerist mentalities dominating capitalism
today. Invest and save so that when the time comes you have something to
give someone else in need. Or if you are so into redistribution, please
forward any un-needed wealth my way, odds are I make far less than you.
Don't worry I won't force you, I'm a Christian who believes in free will. :)

    PvM: You seem to be missing my points here. I understand that the
concept of the Jubilee may make you uncomfortable but should Christians not
step in Christ's footsteps and be proud to implement the Jubilee?

    [Don Perrett] The concept of Jubilee is great to me. It does not make
me uncomfortable. My question is, do you practice it now? I do. I live
only within my means. I have no credit cards, no bank accounts. I choose
not to participate in the consumeristic culture. But that is MY choice.
Whatever I have excess goes to others. I donate my time for charities
including some Christian websites I maintain at no cost. I do this because
I am not trying to gain any wealth. I have no need for it. I do not
believe however that anyone has a right to take the rights away from someone
else for the so called good of the society. Disobedience to God's gift of
free will is not biblical. You repeatedly tell everyone that they don't
listen to the whole bible, when you yourself will not hear God's word with
regard to free will. But I will not stand in judgement. Your heart may be
in the right place when it comes to the inequities of modern society, but
your logical process for it's solution is illogical and unbiblical. If you
want to come up with your own economic model which can include both the free
will God gave us and can institute the Jubilee concepts you seem to
interpret then please let us know. I would be more than happy to help you
develop one.

    Why should we support tax cuts for the rich when the gap between rich
and poor is increasing? Such only serves to increase the inequality between
people.

    [Don Perrett] I too am not please with the corruption of the capitalist
system, however it is the only way right now for mankind to be lifted out of
the inequities that have plagued mankind for centuries past, and still
exists in some countries today. Find a new way that works freely and I'll
jump on board. The differences between one man and another can sometimes be
great, whether it is their physical abilities, mental abilities or economic
abilities. The question is whether one sits back and sees a handicapped
person fall over out of his wheelchair and do nothing, or do they help. If
those with see someone suffering without they should help them up out of
poverty. Waiting for the seventh year to do that may not be what is best.
The alternative is to have redistribution at all times, which is not
biblical Jubilee, it is socialism/communism. The point of only having
redistribution every seven years is to allow wealth to be increased fo seven
years and then redistributed on the seventh year. If you do not allow it to
grow and then harvest it, you will only get seeds on a daily basis which
cannot feed anyone. Allowing tax cuts at a time when the economy is slowing
and then raising them slowly again as the market increases then you end up
with a Jubilee type of market. This country goes through ebbs and tides
when it comes to taxes and welfare type programs. Most economist realize
that if the gaps between rich and poor get to great then we can end up in a
depression. People without money do not buy. If people do not buy then the
rich will have nothing either and inflation will run rampant. It is in the
wealthy's interest to insure that poverty is kept in check and that the
balance is maintained. Having only a rich and poor class does not work.
This is why socialism fails. The people in power have and everyone else is
equally poor. Same was true under monarchies. Having diversity in any
system, including biological ones, is necessary. Right now the main reason
for political corruption in America is due to the Two Party System. The
power that the two parties wield is too great. In a more diverse system, it
would be more difficult for each individual to be corrupted. I personally
believe that with modern technology and with an educated public, the need
for parliments and congresses are not needed. If each person were to vote
online upon the issues that would be the ultimate diversity, which would be
a complimentary political system to the true capitalist system. Then those
like yourself would have a greater voice concerning the inequities. Do not
shut down free will with a semi-socialist system, open it up with a free
will based political system.

     Why should we accept that US workers are treated so poorly when they
are instrumental in contributing to the riches of a few in the US?
    I see how the Jubilee could rectify many of these problems which the
Bible many thousands of years ago identified as real.

    [Don Perrett] I'm not sure what you mean by the US workers. Are you
implying that US workers are treated poorly? Perhaps you should do some
research to see how well workers in non-capitalist system are treated. It
is to the benefit of corporations to insure that the workers are happy. If
they are not then the workers and their families and anyone they speak to
will not buy their products, and there would likely be poor productivity and
quality control. In a non-capitalist system, including military,
productivity and quality can only be increased by force not incentive.

    You yourself may consider yourself poor compared to some and yet you are
rich compared to many others.

    [Don Perrett] It's not a question of whether I consider myself poor.
I'm rich as far as I'm concerned. I need no more than I already have. I am
by definition of the government well below the poverty line. But I am
content at this level. I have no want to be wealthy. God meets my needs.

     I think there are some interesting lessons the Bible is teaching us
that some may be avoiding or missing.
    Perhaps the link I provided was wrong in some aspects of the Jubilee but
I see them making at least an honest attempt to interpret and apply God's
teachings.

    Talking about the Jubilee without any real substance concerning it's
economic modeling and implementation does not get anywhere. Which is
basically what that link was. They perhaps interpreted but did not apply.
How is this economic model to be created, or implemented within society and
how will the current systems, both socialist and capitalist, transition
without causing an economic meltdown which would lay everyone to the ground?

    [Don Perrett]

    Don P

    -----Original Message-----
    From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]On
    Behalf Of Pim van Meurs
    Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 13:07
    Cc: American Science Association
    Subject: Re: Money is a tool. A Message to Redistributionists

    Matt "Fritz" Bergin wrote:

> This was my argument at the begining of the debate. I think we need to
> look individually at each person and actually get out there and
> interact with them b ecause it's my view that many poor have problems
> that need solutions that do not have their roots in money and
> therefore money will not solve it. You can see it on TV all the time.
> There was a show on TV where these two guys go around and talk to
> people on the street and get to know them and their problems then
> offer to give them help for addictions, ect. With a socialist system
> we would just tell everyone that your problem is money and leave it at
> that. I didn't see Jesus tossing a few coins to the people that he
> came to that were in need and telling them that should solve
> everything. It seems like a very simple and cold solution to a problem
> that I think is complex and different for each person.

    This is an oversimplistic view of reality. I have no idea where you got
    the idea that a 'socialist system would tell everyone that your problem
    is money and leave it at that'. This sounds much like a strawman
argument.
    What I am trying to point out is that the Jubilee (redistribution of
    land and wealth) as outlined in the Bible would go a long way towards
    resolving many of the problems. Would it resolve all problems? Of course
    not but good education, a solid family, regular and predictable meals
    are all an essential part of giving people equal opportunities to
succeed.

    I am fascinated that Jubilee economics seem to have found a growing
    audience
    (http://www.jubilee4justice.org/assets/PDF/economics_in_brief.pdf). They
    rightly point out that one of the reasons that the Jubilee is not
    practiced more widely is because there are strong political and economic
    interests involved.
    Look for instance at the tax reduction for the rich which seems to go
    contrary to these biblical teachings but are easily understood in the
    present day political climate of cronie-ism.

    I see a powerful message in Christ's words and the old testament which
    we as Christians should not forget. Certainly, it seems not very helpful
    to reject the Jubilee just because it has some similarities with
    socialism/communism.

>
> ~Matt
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Donald Perrett (E-mail)
>
> *To:* 'Pim van Meurs'
> *Cc:* ASA Discussions (E-mail)
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 09, 2006 10:50 AM
> *Subject:* RE: Money is a tool. A Message to Redistributionists
>
> I see the Jubilee occur every month or so. I see it in even
> non-Christian, though American, institutions. People and
> organizations that go out and collect up items and money to help
> the poor. Even if there is no big emergency like 9/11 or Katrina
> we see this on a fairly regular ba sis in this country. Whether it
> is an ad on TV for Save the Children Fund or some other NPO. Why
> must the Jubliee by stolen and raped by some artificial
> wannabe-human organization known as government. When a person of
> poverty gets help from those in his community, he feels grateful
> that there are those that care for him. When a person gets his
> welfare check and food stamps does he say thank you to the tax
> payers or even the government? Where is the personal human love
> that is expressed in the giving and sharing of the biblical
> jubilee? Dehumanize all you want into a globule of mass
> corruption, but this will not change the condition of the human
> need to be loved and cared for by his fellow man. Only through
> the fellowship gained by the personal sacrifices made by one man
> for the sake of another can peace, love and human ki ndness be
> increased.
>
> May the Lord work through each of us to increase our brothers
> wealth and dignity
>
> Don P
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
> [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]*On Behalf Of *Pim van Meurs
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 09, 2006 01:01
> *To:* asa@calvin.edu
> *Subject:* Re: Money is a tool. A Message to Redistributionists
>
> Interesting response, but missing the point again. My comment
> is one of wonder why Christians seem to be unwilling to
> implement some biblical teachings while adhering to others. Do
> we as Christians get to chose what part of the Bible we like
> or dislike? Is that your attitude towards the Bible or am I
> missing something?
>
> I am not sure where y ou got your idea about imposing my
> religious conscience on others, I am merely asking about how
> others interpret the Jubilee and why it seems to be totally
> ignored.
>
> Perhaps it's time for Janice to read more carefully before
> responding? But at least we seem to agree that imposing
> religious belief onto others is the wrong approach.
> The real question for me however is how Christians deal with
> the concept of the Jubilee and why it seems to have been
> mostly ignored? But perhaps my reading of the bible is too
> literal :-)
>
>
Received on Sat Mar 11 07:59:02 2006