Re: Money is a tool. A Message to Redistributionists

"Matt \"Fritz\" Bergin" <fritziematt@yahoo.com> wrote: Again I say that we need to look at each individual and not assume that the problems of every poor person are due to money or lack of it. You said yourself that all of these individual problems that I mentioned are only secondary causes because the real problem is that they don't have wealth and if we gave them wealth they wouldn't get into these problems in the first place.

PvM: Secondary problems will not go away once they have arisen. What I am saying is that many of the secondary causes can be avoided by focusing on equality.

I still disagree and I don't see how Jubilee is going to help people
with individual and personal problems. We all have wealth and
possessions...we all see people in need quite often...we all have the
freedom to help that person if we choose to in many different ways. We need to get to know those people and find out what their particular problem is and help them in a way that will deal with the problem. Socialist jubilee sounds to me (IMO) that we should tell these people that their problems are just secondary problems that stem from them not having wealth. So they should come to a Jubilee and get some money and land and all of these secondary problems will be solved magically and will never come back. Lastly who is the Jubilee supported by socialists supposed to glorify? God or socialists?

PvM: That's a strange question. Jubilee is a religious concept.

~Matt

----- Original Message -----
From: "Pim van Meurs"

Cc: "American Science Association"
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 11:07 AM
Subject: Re: Money is a tool. A Message to Redistributionists

> Matt "Fritz" Bergin wrote:
>
>> This was my argument at the begining of the debate. I think we need to
>> look individually at each person and actually get out there and interact
>> with them because it's my view that many poor have problems that need
>> solutions that do not have their roots in money and therefore money will
>> not solve it. You can see it on TV all the time. There was a show on TV
>> where these two guys go around and talk to people on the street and get
>> to know them and their problems then offer to give them help for
>> addictions, ect. With a socialist system we would just tell everyone that
>> your problem is money and leave it at that. I didn't see Jesus tossing a
>> few coins to the people that he came to that were in need and telling
>> them that should solve everything. It seems like a very simple and cold
>> solution to a problem that I think is complex and different for each
>> person.
>
>
> This is an oversimplistic view of reality. I have no idea where you got
> the idea that a 'socialist system would tell everyone that your problem is
> money and leave it at that'. This sounds much like a strawman argument.
> What I am trying to point out is that the Jubilee (redistribution of land
> and wealth) as outlined in the Bible would go a long way towards resolving
> many of the problems. Would it resolve all problems? Of course not but
> good education, a solid family, regular and predictable meals are all an
> essential part of giving people equal opportunities to succeed.
>
> I am fascinated that Jubilee economics seem to have found a growing
> audience
> (http://www.jubilee4justice.org/assets/PDF/economics_in_brief.pdf). They
> rightly point out that one of the reasons that the Jubilee is not
> practiced more widely is because there are strong political and economic
> interests involved.
> Look for instance at the tax reduction for the rich which seems to go
> contrary to these biblical teachings but are easily understood in the
> present day political climate of cronie-ism.
>
> I see a powerful message in Christ's words and the old testament which we
> as Christians should not forget. Certainly, it seems not very helpful to
> reject the Jubilee just because it has some similarities with
> socialism/communism.
>
>> ~Matt
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* Donald Perrett (E-mail)
>>
>> *To:* 'Pim van Meurs'
>> *Cc:* ASA Discussions (E-mail)
>> *Sent:* Thursday, March 09, 2006 10:50 AM
>> *Subject:* RE: Money is a tool. A Message to Redistributionists
>>
>> I see the Jubilee occur every month or so. I see it in even
>> non-Christian, though American, institutions. People and
>> organizations that go out and collect up items and money to help
>> the poor. Even if there is no big emergency like 9/11 or Katrina
>> we see this on a fairly regular basis in this country. Whether it
>> is an ad on TV for Save the Children Fund or some other NPO. Why
>> must the Jubliee by stolen and raped by some artificial
>> wannabe-human organization known as government. When a person of
>> poverty gets help from those in his community, he feels grateful
>> that there are those that care for him. When a person gets his
>> welfare check and food stamps does he say thank you to the tax
>> payers or even the government? Where is the personal human love
>> that is expressed in the giving and sharing of the biblical
>> jubilee? Dehumanize all you want into a globule of mass
>> corruption, but this will not change the condition of the human
>> need to be loved and cared for by his fellow man. Only through
>> the fellowship gained by the personal sacrifices made by one man
>> for the sake of another can peace, love and human kindness be
>> increased.
>> May the Lord work through each of us to increase our brothers
>> wealth and dignity
>> Don P
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> *From:* asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
>> [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]*On Behalf Of *Pim van Meurs
>> *Sent:* Thursday, March 09, 2006 01:01
>> *To:* asa@calvin.edu
>> *Subject:* Re: Money is a tool. A Message to Redistributionists
>>
>> Interesting response, but missing the point again. My comment
>> is one of wonder why Christians seem to be unwilling to
>> implement some biblical teachings while adhering to others. Do
>> we as Christians get to chose what part of the Bible we like
>> or dislike? Is that your attitude towards the Bible or am I
>> missing something?
>>
>> I am not sure where you got your idea about imposing my
>> religious conscience on others, I am merely asking about how
>> others interpret the Jubilee and why it seems to be totally
>> ignored.
>>
>> Perhaps it's time for Janice to read more carefully before
>> responding? But at least we seem to agree that imposing
>> religious belief onto others is the wrong approach.
>> The real question for me however is how Christians deal with
>> the concept of the Jubilee and why it seems to have been
>> mostly ignored? But perhaps my reading of the bible is too
>> literal :-)
>>
>>
>
Received on Sat Mar 11 02:58:22 2006