Re: [Bulk] RE: The Left Hand of God or "is God a socialist"

Wow, I love how you present capitalism so disjoint from the reality. I
have no time or intention to argue against strawmen though. Sorry but
things are hardly that black and white. If you are interested in
discussing Christmas commercialism then fine. I have no intention to
discuss the revision of history. Off list we may discuss how your
utopian view of capitalism compares to the utopian views of socialism
and communism. We may even explore how capitalism and crony-ism has led
to a situation in which our freedoms have been surpressed or where the
few rule the many.

So lets get back on topic shall we? Is it your suggestion that our
society wants a commercial Christmas and that we as Christians should
not lament the loss of religious meaning to this holiday? After all, its
an outcome of the process in which gathering of wealth is considered to
be the ultimate goal and good of our society.
And yet, we hear a lot of objections from the political right
complaining that the secularists or the political left have caused the
demise of Christmas as a religious holiday when it is in fact the
commercialism caused by the concepts of ownership as a substitute for
social responsibilities.
Is the redistribution of wealth as proposed in the concept of the
Jubilee something that we Christians can safely ignore since it may
interfere with such 'lofty' materialistic concepts of the gathering and
accumulation of wealth by a few? Or should we as Christians take more
seriously the concept of social and economic equality ?
So perhaps the next time the political right laments how the meaning of
Christmas is destroyed by the left, we can point out to them that they
should stop whining? Or should we help them consider the deeper root
causes of the demise of the religious nature of this holiday? Such as
the socialistic concept of commercialism ;-)
Lest we are confused, in name of capitalism or communism/socialism much
evil has been done, no doubt about it. My question is, as Christians is
it wise to align ourselves with the political right? Or are better
alternatives available to us such as a regular jubilee to rectify the
inequities that have arisen in our society? How does the Jubilee compare
with for instance tax cuts for the wealthy? Just curious how we as
Christians should interpret and implement the concept of the Jubilee.

"What we have discovered, fundamentally, is that many people need what
anthropologist Clifford Geertz once termed a "politics of meaning" and
what I now call a spiritual politics -- a spiritual framework that can
lend meaning to their lives. They yearn for a purpose-driven life that
will allow them to serve something beyond personal goals and economic
self-interest. If they don't find this sense of purpose on the Left,
they will look for it on the Right." Excerpt from Left Hand of God

Donald Perrett (E-mail) wrote:

> Pim
>
> I absolutely agree with you about Christmas commercialism. This is
> not the result of capitalism. Once educated on what capitalism is,
> one would understand that the concepts of ownership and the pooling
> together of capital is an absolute. The question isn't about
> gathering together of money and resources, it's to who do they
> gather. Under socialism it is gathered for a select few people who
> are chosen by a select few people who claim to represent the masses.
> Sounds like democracy as well, or any other political structure,
> doesn't it? But under capitalism, it is gathered to a select few
> people who are NOT chosen but who they themselves have worked hard and
> with great knowledge and wisdom (financially that is) have been able
> to rise to a level capable of increasing the wealth of themselves and
> others who ride their coattails. They are not selected by some
> fallacious political process, and who knows who, and who kisses whos
> you know what. It is about whether you have something which society
> wants (not necessarily needs though). How often do you vote? Are you
> really blind to think your vote will change the world? You may vote
> every November or maybe only once every four years, I vote every day.
> I do this by deciding how I spend my money and to whom it will go. If
> I don't like Chinese human rights, then I will not shop at Walmart.
> If I don't like Mideast oil, then I will buy my gas from a place that
> only uses NON-Mideast oil, such as BP. I choose to make a difference
> daily, how about you? Socialism or any other reliance upon a
> governmental system can only lead to the supression of human rights
> and freedoms. If you think that Christmas is too commercial then
> target the people supporting it and wasting their hard earned money on
> non-essential items. Educate others on how to grow their wealth and
> how to help others do the same. And when needed help those that
> cannot help others. When was the last time some poor Russian out in
> the middle of Siberia under the sole care of a socialist USSR help
> another human recover from a natural disaster on the other side of the
> planet. This country with its capitalism has done this countless
> times and will continue to do so, so long as it stays capitalist and
> Christian. Jubilee and socialism are not the same. One is under the
> direct leadership of God and the other killed God as soon as it took
> root nearly 500 years ago.
>
> Before going further, please let me explain one thing. I do not like
> to boast, just ask Dick Fischer. I do not like to explain how much I
> know in my area of expertise, sorry Glenn (you are great in your field
> though). But in this I will assure you, I spent my entire military
> career in Central America, SouthEast Asia and parts of the world I
> cannot even say I've been. I worked my entire time in Military
> Intelligence and speak Russian, Czeck, Tagalog, Spanish, Some Korean,
> Some Thai and Some Hindi. In all that time in so many countries and
> having spent so much time studying political science and history just
> to understand what socialism was, is and what THEIR plans are I can
> say without a doubt that the only thing in this world worse than a neo
> nazi right winger is a socialist. Give me my freedom and let me keep
> it. When I see someone in need I pray to God that I have something to
> give them and that I am not empty handed because the goverment has
> chosen to take everything from me in order to keep me and my fellow
> man oppressed. Libre De Oppresso.
>
> Don Perrett
> Special Forces Communications and Intelligence
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
> [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]*On Behalf Of *Pim van Meurs
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 07, 2006 01:42
> *To:* asa@calvin.edu
> *Subject:* Re: The Left Hand of God or "is God a socialist"
>
> You're focusing too much on the webpages. Let's focus on the
> issues such as the capitalistic nature of Santa Claus destroying
> the religious natur of Christmas. Or what about the Jubilee part?
> What reasons do we have to ignore these teachings while subjecting
> ourselves to others? Do we get to pick and chose our Biblical
> passages?
>
> People and churches may abuse the jubilee but the underlying idea
> seems quite socialistic in nature namely the redistribution of wealth.
> I see the jubilee as something that is enacted by the people of
> faith. Sounds like a great idea.
>
> The webpage I quoted 'objects' to accepting these biblical themes
> by arguing that these jubliee movements are somehow unbiblical
>
> 'We know of similar Jubilee movements which feel the need to
> overpower existing churches and restructure them along an Old
> Testament pattern. At times it means using deceit and force to
> take over the property to redistribute the wealth in a socialist
> system."
>
> But are they right? Or just scared?
>
>
> */"Matt \"Fritz\" Bergin" <fritziematt@yahoo.com>/* wrote:
>
> I don't see how Jesus could be said to support any type of
> economic theory by reading the Bible besides that we should
> give to the poor and help each other out when we see someone
> in need. I think this is a far more meaningful way to help
> others. I'm not even sure what you mean by socialism since
> there are so many different types its hard to keep track.
> Looking at the website that you gave this looks like either a
> cult based on a few verses in th e Bible or a really bad way
> to try to convince the religious that socialism is Biblical. I
> would have to say that this part of the top of the page "We
> know of similar Jubilee movements which feel the need to
> overpower existing churches and restructure them along an Old
> Testament pattern. At times it means using deceit and force to
> take over the property to redistribute the wealth in a
> socialist system" I don't really see deciet and force as
> something that Jesus taught but maybe you can point me to the
> versus that support this.
> ~Matt
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Pim van Meurs <mailto:pimvanmeurs@yahoo.com>
> *To:* asa@calvin.edu <mailto:asa@calvin.edu>
> *Sent:* Monday, March 06, 2006 9:43 PM
> *Subject:* The Left Hand of God or "is God a socialist"
>
> I listened to a radio program today with Lerner, author of
> "the Left hand of God". What occurred to me is the irony
> of the political right being the vanguards of religion
> when it is capitalism itself which undermines much of
> religion and faith.
> A good example mentioned was Christmas, and while the
> right laments that the secular leftists are causing the
> demise of this great holiday, it seems far more likely
> that the materialistic nature of the Santa Claus event is
> what really undermines the religious traditions of Christmas.
>
> The more I think about it the more I come to realize that
> Jesus was quite a socialist in his days.
>
> And note how God in Leviti cus seems to support the
> redistribution of wealth
>
> And thou shalt number seven sabbaths of years unto thee,
> seven times seven years; and the space of the seven
> sabbaths of years shall be unto thee forty and nine years.
> Then shalt thou cause the trumpet of jubile [/sic/] to
> sound on the tenth day of the sev enth month, in the day
> of atonement shall ye make the trumpet sound throughout
> all your land.
> And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim
> liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants
> thereof: it shall be a jubile unto you. ...
> -- Leviticus 25: 8-10 (KJV)
>
> See http://www.piney.com/JubileJewish.html for an
> interesting viewpoint on this. I wonder why the religious
> right is not focusing on these aspects of the Bible?
>
> <quote>Let us look at the Bible's "Jubilee program" in
> more detail. It is rooted in a *sense of sacred time*,
> sacred cycles of work-time and rest-time that are defined
> partly by the earth and partly by society. These cycles
> (on the *model of Sabbath rest* and contemplation,
> celebration and material sharing on the seventh day) are
> sha ped by treating the seventh year and the fiftieth year
> (the year after the seventh seventh year) as a special time.
> Every seventh year, all debts are cancelled. The land is
> not subjected to organized cultivation or harvest;
> whatever freely grows from it may in that year be freely
> gathered by any family for its own food. What has been
> stored before is shared.
> In the fiftieth year, the land rests again, and every
> family returns to the equal share of productive land that
> it was allotted when Israelitesociety began. The poor
> become equal, the rich give up the extra wealth they had
> accumulated.
> And all this is done not by a central government's
> taxation or police power, but by the direct action of each
> family, each clan, each tribe in its own region.</quote>
> These are exciting issues for me to contemplate. Seems
> that it's time to return religious faith to wher e it
> would find a much better home. Given the policies of the
> right, I wonder if this is the place for us Christians to
> find shelter?
>
> http://www.allaboutgod.com/truth-topics/jubilee.htm
>
>
Received on Wed Mar 8 12:07:42 2006